Michael J. Mahon

Bryan Parkoff wrote:
> "nyder" <nyder.23@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1178569264.243117.134480@y5g2000hsa.googlegro ups.com...
>
>>On May 7, 1:00 pm, "Michael J. Mahon" <mjma...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Charlie wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Michael J. Mahon" <mjma...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:5vSdnYkGg6mtYqPbnZ2dnUVZ_q2pnZ2d@comcast. com...
>>>
>>>>>mdj wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>On May 7, 8:38 am, "Michael J. Mahon" <mjma...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>I was thinking that the white RCA connector could also be a sync
>>>>>>>output... But, IIRC, the SCART connector does have power, right?
>>>
>>>>>>Unfortunately, no. It provides stereo sound in/out, composite video
>>>>>>in/
>>>>>>out, and RGB in/out. The later revisions of the standard allow the RGB
>>>>>>signal pins to carry either YUV or S-Video. IIRC, YUV isn't even a
>>>>>>part of the standard.
>>>
>>>>>>There's also pins for the D2B automation bus and a signalling pin for
>>>>>>16:9/4:3 source identification.
>>>
>>>>>>So that white connector could also be composite sync input. Perhaps
>>>>>>the power connection is obscured somehow.
>>>
>>>>>OK, my apologies...I thought all those RCA jacks were *outputs*!
>>>>>After all, it does say RGB *to* component, and SCART is RGB, right?
>>>
>>>>>And it also says:
>>>
>>>>>* BRAND NEW; Scart (male) to Component (female) Adapter.
>>>>>* For 'RGB' scart video signal to high quality 'Y/U/V' component video
>>>>> signal.
>>>>>* Signal output from DVD players, Freeview, Sky or Sky+ set-top boxes
>>>>> to Component Video.
>>>
>>>>>That sure *sounds* like it accepts an RGB signal on the SCART side
>>>>>and outputs a Component signal on the RCA side.
>>>
>>>>>I thought that SCART was also an *output* connector for AV equipment,
>>>>>and that it would supply RGB that this box would convert to component.
>>>>>(And with all those pins, not supplying a little power seems like an
>>>>>oversight...)
>>>
>>>>>Does anyone know what this $5 thing actually does?
>>>>>(I'm pretty sure that the $60 box does what I described.)
>>>
>>>>>In any event, this would be a straightforward way to drive a modern
>>>>>TV from a IIgs RGB signal, perhaps.
>>>
>>>>Michael,
>>>
>>>>Okay, I'm a little confused. What is the difference between RGB
>>>>component
>>>>video and Y/U/V component video?
>>>
>>>RGB is one thing, Component is another--and Y/U/V is another way of
>>>saying "component".
>>>
>>>"Component" is not commonly used to refer to RGB.
>>>
>>>RGB is three, high-bandwidth analog video signals, one per primary color
>>>of the display device.
>>>
>>>Component refers to three analog signals: the high-bandwidth luminance
>>>signal (Y), and the (usually lower bandwidth) color difference signals
>>>called B-Y (or Pb or U) and R-Y (or Pr or V). (These different names
>>>actually refer to different matrix factors used in forming the signals
>>>and their levels, so they are not *really* identical, though their
>>>usage is quite similar.)
>>>
>>>RGB is a standard native to tri-color displays and computer graphics
>>>systems, while component video is native to video recording and
>>>transmission systems. Component video, with its typically reduced
>>>bandwidth chroma channels, is better suited to video transmission.
>>>
>>>
>>>>And more important to me, would either one
>>>>of the boxes (assuming they do what they advertise) give me a better
>>>>screen
>>>>image than just running the IIgs output into my Monitor/TV with Roger
>>>>Johnstone's IIgs to SCART cable?
>>>
>>>No, direct analog RGB output to an RGB input is the best you can do.
>>>
>>>
>>>> As it stands now I get a usable but not
>>>>perfect picture. The only problem seems to be in the transition from
>>>>one
>>>>color to another horizontally. For instance, if you have a line of
>>>>horizontal black pixels which turn to white there will be one pixel at
>>>>the
>>>>transition that is gray. This creates a horizontal ghosting effect
>>>>that can
>>>>be reduced by judicious adjusting of the contrast and sharpness, but
>>>>some
>>>>color combinations are worse than others. I had the impression from
>>>>past
>>>>threads that this ghosting effect was caused by the monitor not being
>>>>able
>>>>to sync with the IIgs signal frequency.
>>>
>>>I presume you are using a digital monitor, and you are correct, the
>>>"intermediate" value pixel is the result of the sampling clock of the
>>>monitor not being locked to the dot clock of the IIgs. If the pattern
>>>of gray pixels is constant and consistent over the width of the display,
>>>then your monitor may have locked to a multiple of the dot clock.
>>>
>>>
>>>>My monitor/TV (Samsung SyncMaster 940mw) will accept several types of
>>>>video
>>>>input including both SCART and component video but to further confuse
>>>>me the
>>>>component video input is listed as Pr, Pb, Y.
>>>
>>>Those are the common names for the "components" of "component video".
>>>
>>>The reason for my interest in good, inexpensive RGB to component
>>>converters is that in the US, HD monitors typically do not have RGB
>>>inputs, but they often do have component inputs. Since component
>>>signals can be created from RGB signals by analog matrixing (combination
>>>with specific weighting factors), such converters are, in principle,
>>>very simple. Unfortunately, they also seem to be relatively low volume,
>>>so their simplicity often is not reflected in their price.
>>>
>>>-michael
>>>
>>>NadaNet file server for Apple II computers!
>>>Home page: http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/
>>>
>>>"The wastebasket is our most important design
>>>tool--and it's seriously underused."
>>
>>
>>
>>Does the IIGS output analog or digital RGB?
>>
>
>
> Apple IIgs outputs analog RGB in the RGB video port. If you wish to
> outputs digital RGB, you can do from the motherboard before the analog RGB
> video port. If it is CGA monitor using IRGB, connect RGB1, RGB2, RGB4, &
> RGB8 pin on VGC chip.

However, that is a 4-/4-/4-bit "digital RGB", which is not what the
common term "digital RGB" means in the retrocomputing world: three
digital (1-bit) lines for R, G, and B, plus one 1-bit line for
"modified intensity". There is the so-called CGA RGBI standard, and
the somewhat different Apple II RGBI standard.

-michael

NadaNet file server for Apple II computers!
Home page: http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/

"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it's seriously underused."

Michael J. Mahon

mdj wrote:
> On May 7, 8:27 pm, "Michael J. Mahon" <mjma...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>>OK, my apologies...I thought all those RCA jacks were *outputs*!
>>After all, it does say RGB *to* component, and SCART is RGB, right?
>>
>>And it also says:
>>
>>* BRAND NEW; Scart (male) to Component (female) Adapter.
>>* For 'RGB' scart video signal to high quality 'Y/U/V' component video
>> signal.
>>* Signal output from DVD players, Freeview, Sky or Sky+ set-top boxes
>> to Component Video.
>>
>>That sure *sounds* like it accepts an RGB signal on the SCART side
>>and outputs a Component signal on the RCA side.
>
>
> It could be either :-)
>
> Most SCART equipped televisions/displays have a pair of connectors -
> one is convention SCART RGB, the other accepts component or s-video.

Great. So SCART is synonymous with "a standard connector with any
signals we feel like connecting to it". ;-(

>>I thought that SCART was also an *output* connector for AV equipment,
>>and that it would supply RGB that this box would convert to component.
>>(And with all those pins, not supplying a little power seems like an
>>oversight...)
>
>
> It is - SCART outputs usually only supply RGB however. At least down
> here, it's pretty common for a DVD player to have SCART, YUV, s-video,
> and composite outputs.

Good--so it *is* used for both inputs and outputs.

>>Does anyone know what this $5 thing actually does?
>>(I'm pretty sure that the $60 box does what I described.)
>
>
> Now I'm confused :-) It's certainly common to use such a thing to
> drive RGB SCART TV's from sources that only support component video.
> Potentially, it's just a simple conversion box that routes the three-
> coax RGB *or* Component signal to the correct SCART pins. This lets
> you use either RGB or Component outputs on source equipment that only
> have the three RCA connectors.

A converter that allows one to "drive RGB SCART TV's from sources that
only support component video" should be called a "component to RGB
SCART" converter.

Converters should *always* be named in the direction of the signal they
accept as input "to" the signal they produce as output. (This is a
common screw-up in converter nomenclature.)

> Since it seems powerless, this would be the most logical explanation,
> but then, it's equally valid to plug such a thing into a SCART source
> device to export RCA, but I've not seen that done.
>
> Of course as I mentioned the power connector may simply be
> invisible...

Right--so the additional description I quoted later in the thread
is relevant to disambiguating these possibilities (though it still
leaves the power source unnamed).

-michael

NadaNet file server for Apple II computers!
Home page: http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/

"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it's seriously underused."

Bryan Parkoff

"Michael J. Mahon" <mjmahon@aol.com> wrote in message
news:HvidnfuI6cHzldzbnZ2dnUVZ_vyunZ2d@comcast.com. ..
> Bryan Parkoff wrote:
>> "nyder" <nyder.23@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1178569264.243117.134480@y5g2000hsa.googlegro ups.com...
>>
>>>On May 7, 1:00 pm, "Michael J. Mahon" <mjma...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Charlie wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"Michael J. Mahon" <mjma...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:5vSdnYkGg6mtYqPbnZ2dnUVZ_q2pnZ2d@comcast .com...
>>>>
>>>>>>mdj wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>On May 7, 8:38 am, "Michael J. Mahon" <mjma...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>I was thinking that the white RCA connector could also be a sync
>>>>>>>>output... But, IIRC, the SCART connector does have power, right?
>>>>
>>>>>>>Unfortunately, no. It provides stereo sound in/out, composite video
>>>>>>>in/
>>>>>>>out, and RGB in/out. The later revisions of the standard allow the
>>>>>>>RGB
>>>>>>>signal pins to carry either YUV or S-Video. IIRC, YUV isn't even a
>>>>>>>part of the standard.
>>>>
>>>>>>>There's also pins for the D2B automation bus and a signalling pin for
>>>>>>>16:9/4:3 source identification.
>>>>
>>>>>>>So that white connector could also be composite sync input. Perhaps
>>>>>>>the power connection is obscured somehow.
>>>>
>>>>>>OK, my apologies...I thought all those RCA jacks were *outputs*!
>>>>>>After all, it does say RGB *to* component, and SCART is RGB, right?
>>>>
>>>>>>And it also says:
>>>>
>>>>>>* BRAND NEW; Scart (male) to Component (female) Adapter.
>>>>>>* For 'RGB' scart video signal to high quality 'Y/U/V' component video
>>>>>> signal.
>>>>>>* Signal output from DVD players, Freeview, Sky or Sky+ set-top boxes
>>>>>> to Component Video.
>>>>
>>>>>>That sure *sounds* like it accepts an RGB signal on the SCART side
>>>>>>and outputs a Component signal on the RCA side.
>>>>
>>>>>>I thought that SCART was also an *output* connector for AV equipment,
>>>>>>and that it would supply RGB that this box would convert to component.
>>>>>>(And with all those pins, not supplying a little power seems like an
>>>>>>oversight...)
>>>>
>>>>>>Does anyone know what this $5 thing actually does?
>>>>>>(I'm pretty sure that the $60 box does what I described.)
>>>>
>>>>>>In any event, this would be a straightforward way to drive a modern
>>>>>>TV from a IIgs RGB signal, perhaps.
>>>>
>>>>>Michael,
>>>>
>>>>>Okay, I'm a little confused. What is the difference between RGB
>>>>>component
>>>>>video and Y/U/V component video?
>>>>
>>>>RGB is one thing, Component is another--and Y/U/V is another way of
>>>>saying "component".
>>>>
>>>>"Component" is not commonly used to refer to RGB.
>>>>
>>>>RGB is three, high-bandwidth analog video signals, one per primary color
>>>>of the display device.
>>>>
>>>>Component refers to three analog signals: the high-bandwidth luminance
>>>>signal (Y), and the (usually lower bandwidth) color difference signals
>>>>called B-Y (or Pb or U) and R-Y (or Pr or V). (These different names
>>>>actually refer to different matrix factors used in forming the signals
>>>>and their levels, so they are not *really* identical, though their
>>>>usage is quite similar.)
>>>>
>>>>RGB is a standard native to tri-color displays and computer graphics
>>>>systems, while component video is native to video recording and
>>>>transmission systems. Component video, with its typically reduced
>>>>bandwidth chroma channels, is better suited to video transmission.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>And more important to me, would either one
>>>>>of the boxes (assuming they do what they advertise) give me a better
>>>>>screen
>>>>>image than just running the IIgs output into my Monitor/TV with Roger
>>>>>Johnstone's IIgs to SCART cable?
>>>>
>>>>No, direct analog RGB output to an RGB input is the best you can do.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> As it stands now I get a usable but not
>>>>>perfect picture. The only problem seems to be in the transition from
>>>>>one
>>>>>color to another horizontally. For instance, if you have a line of
>>>>>horizontal black pixels which turn to white there will be one pixel at
>>>>>the
>>>>>transition that is gray. This creates a horizontal ghosting effect
>>>>>that can
>>>>>be reduced by judicious adjusting of the contrast and sharpness, but
>>>>>some
>>>>>color combinations are worse than others. I had the impression from
>>>>>past
>>>>>threads that this ghosting effect was caused by the monitor not being
>>>>>able
>>>>>to sync with the IIgs signal frequency.
>>>>
>>>>I presume you are using a digital monitor, and you are correct, the
>>>>"intermediate" value pixel is the result of the sampling clock of the
>>>>monitor not being locked to the dot clock of the IIgs. If the pattern
>>>>of gray pixels is constant and consistent over the width of the display,
>>>>then your monitor may have locked to a multiple of the dot clock.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>My monitor/TV (Samsung SyncMaster 940mw) will accept several types of
>>>>>video
>>>>>input including both SCART and component video but to further confuse
>>>>>me the
>>>>>component video input is listed as Pr, Pb, Y.
>>>>
>>>>Those are the common names for the "components" of "component video".
>>>>
>>>>The reason for my interest in good, inexpensive RGB to component
>>>>converters is that in the US, HD monitors typically do not have RGB
>>>>inputs, but they often do have component inputs. Since component
>>>>signals can be created from RGB signals by analog matrixing (combination
>>>>with specific weighting factors), such converters are, in principle,
>>>>very simple. Unfortunately, they also seem to be relatively low volume,
>>>>so their simplicity often is not reflected in their price.
>>>>
>>>>-michael
>>>>
>>>>NadaNet file server for Apple II computers!
>>>>Home page: http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/
>>>>
>>>>"The wastebasket is our most important design
>>>>tool--and it's seriously underused."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Does the IIGS output analog or digital RGB?
>>>
>>
>>
>> Apple IIgs outputs analog RGB in the RGB video port. If you wish to
>> outputs digital RGB, you can do from the motherboard before the analog
>> RGB video port. If it is CGA monitor using IRGB, connect RGB1, RGB2,
>> RGB4, & RGB8 pin on VGC chip.
>
> However, that is a 4-/4-/4-bit "digital RGB", which is not what the
> common term "digital RGB" means in the retrocomputing world: three
> digital (1-bit) lines for R, G, and B, plus one 1-bit line for
> "modified intensity". There is the so-called CGA RGBI standard, and
> the somewhat different Apple II RGBI standard.
>
Michael

I mean only ONE bit on RGB1, RGB2, RGB4, & RGB8 pins. They can be used
for CGA RGBI. If you need 4 bit digitial to 1 bit analog converter, you can
always connect VID0, VID1, VID2, VID3, VID4, VID5, VID6, VID7, VID8, VID9,
VID10, & VID11 pins from VGC chip.
RGB1, RGB2, RGB4, & RGB8 can be RED, GREEN, BLUE & INTENSITY.

Bryan Parkoff

Steven Hirsch

jsnospam@cimmeri.com wrote:

> a scart -> VGA unit like the Highway 15khz RGB
> Composite synch -> XGA converter w/ any vga device.. crt or lcd.
> This last is what I use to display my IIgs on a Dell P780.

> I spent big $ working out these solutions for everyone, so use the
> research.

I went to the Highway Group web site, but it's not clear which of the many
units is the one you were working with. Can you post the model number?

Steve

jsnospam@cimmeri.com

> a scart -> VGA unit like the Highway 15khz RGB
> Composite synch -> XGA converter w/ any vga device.. crt or lcd.

> I went to the Highway Group web site, but it's not clear which of the many
> units is the one you were working with. Can you post the model number?
> Steve

I think I was pretty clear, Steve.

http://www.highway.net.au/parts/conv...rter_4040.html

Michael J. Mahon

jsnospam@cimmeri.com wrote:
>>a scart -> VGA unit like the Highway 15khz RGB
>>Composite synch -> XGA converter w/ any vga device.. crt or lcd.
>
>
>>I went to the Highway Group web site, but it's not clear which of the many
>>units is the one you were working with. Can you post the model number?
>>Steve
>
>
> I think I was pretty clear, Steve.
>
> http://www.highway.net.au/parts/conv...rter_4040.html

That's a very nice scan converter.

This isn't just a "scan doubler", this is a real video scaler, and so
should do an excelent job of upsampling just about any video signal.

-michael

NadaNet file server for Apple II computers!
Home page: http://members.aol.com/MJMahon/

"The wastebasket is our most important design
tool--and it's seriously underused."

William Garber

"Michael J. Mahon" <mjmahon@aol.com> wrote in message news:moidnaNHYOtCjd_bnZ2dnUVZ_sLinZ2d@comcast.com. ..
: William Garber wrote:
: > "Michael J. Mahon" <mjmahon@aol.com> wrote in message
: > news:mrydnefSOfS35dzbnZ2dnUVZ_s-rnZ2d@comcast.com...
: > : jsnospam@cimmeri.com wrote:
: > : >
: > : > I think I was pretty clear, Steve.
: > : >
: > : >
: > http://www.highway.net.au/parts/conv..._rgb_composite
: > _sync_to_xga_converter_4040.html
: > :
: > : That's a very nice scan converter.
: > :
: > : This isn't just a "scan doubler", this is a real video
: > scaler, and so
: > : should do an excelent job of upsampling just about any
: > video signal.
: >
: > So, I get this and Roger's cable and I can view my IIgs
: > on my 21" CRT monitor, which isn't doing anything else?
:
: It sure looks like it!

Great!, and since I'm not smoking anymore, maybe now
I can afford some things again. Does Rich still have
any CFFA left? I also want a CFFA1 once my expansion
board comes for the Replica 1. I'm psyched again. ))

William Garber
Email Address - willy46pa@garberstreet.com
Alt. Email - willy46pa@comcast.net
Web address - http://www.garberstreet.com

jsnospam@cimmeri.com

> So, I get this and Roger's cable and I can view my IIgs
> on my 21" CRT monitor, which isn't doing anything else?

If your monitor is up to it, then yes. Here's a photo of my setup
with the Dell 780P 17" CRT. You'll see the Highway SCART converter on
the left side standing up. I didn't have time to power on and take
photos, but it's all as good or better than the original IIgs RGB
monitor.

http://hometown.aol.com/MdntTrain/MyIIgs.jpg

I posted this info months ago.. Guess Michael M. forgot.. ;-)

~ J

William Garber

"jsnospam@cimmeri.com" <js@cimmeri.com> wrote in message news:1178747224.589003.130970@y80g2000hsf.googlegr oups.com...
:
: > So, I get this and Roger's cable and I can view my IIgs
: > on my 21" CRT monitor, which isn't doing anything else?
:
: If your monitor is up to it, then yes. Here's a photo of my setup
: with the Dell 780P 17" CRT. You'll see the Highway SCART converter on
: the left side standing up. I didn't have time to power on and take
: photos, but it's all as good or better than the original IIgs RGB
: monitor.
:
: http://hometown.aol.com/MdntTrain/MyIIgs.jpg
:
: I posted this info months ago.. Guess Michael M. forgot.. ;-)
:
: ~ J

Is that a home-brew monitor stand? Very kool.

William Garber
Email Address - willy46pa@garberstreet.com
Alt. Email - willy46pa@comcast.net
Web address - http://www.garberstreet.com

Roger Johnstone

In <FI-dnWNOJLMcl9zbnZ2dnUVZ_qOpnZ2d@comcast.com> Michael J. Mahon wrote:
> mdj wrote:
>> On May 7, 8:27 pm, "Michael J. Mahon" <mjma...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>OK, my apologies...I thought all those RCA jacks were *outputs*!
>>>After all, it does say RGB *to* component, and SCART is RGB, right?
>>>
>>>And it also says:
>>>
>>>* BRAND NEW; Scart (male) to Component (female) Adapter.
>>>* For 'RGB' scart video signal to high quality 'Y/U/V' component
>>>video
>>> signal.
>>>* Signal output from DVD players, Freeview, Sky or Sky+ set-top boxes
>>> to Component Video.
>>>
>>>That sure *sounds* like it accepts an RGB signal on the SCART side
>>>and outputs a Component signal on the RCA side.
>>
>>
>> It could be either :-)
>>
>> Most SCART equipped televisions/displays have a pair of connectors -
>> one is convention SCART RGB, the other accepts component or s-video.
>
> Great. So SCART is synonymous with "a standard connector with any
> signals we feel like connecting to it". ;-(

The SCART standard dates back to the 1970s. We're lucky it had RGB! A
later extension added s-video as an option instead of RGB, but YPbPr is
still not part of the official standard. A lot of modern equipment that
uses SCART connectors can be set to send either YPbPr or RGB over the
RGB pins. I suspect the adapter described above is just a simple plug
converter, but that extra connector still has me confused. One
possibility is that it's the synchronisation signal. YPbPr component
carries the sync on the Y line, but RGB component uses a separate sync
line.

--
* Roger Johnstone, Invercargill, New Zealand -> http://roger.geek.nz
* PS/2 Mouse Adapter for vintage Apple II or Mac
* SCART RGB video cable for Apple IIGS