My line supports 4.5MB... but

Mark McIntyre

Eeyore wrote:
>

> For the OP's benefit (and anyone else reading the thread), it might be a good idea to
> emphasise this fact.
>
> If you're with a major consumer ISP, please bear in mind that you're quite likely to
> be receiving a much poorer service than your line can support.

For the OP's benefit: this is an unsubstantiated claim, and a sensible
person would try to get some substantiation (which means not taking the
word of /anyone/ posting in a newsgroup).

Eeyore

Mark McIntyre wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
> > The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> >> bornfree wrote:
> >
> >>> My line supports 4.5MB, according to a popular ISP's website.
> >>>
> >>> I currently subscribe to an unlimited dynamic 8MB service (£14.99),
> >>> and at night I get 4.5MB (589kB/s).
> >>>
> >>> Will any other broadband provider be able to provide me with more than
> >>> 4.5MB using my current phone line? Or are they fibbing?
> >> No. That rate is set mainly by the line, a little bit by your router and
> >> a little bit by the DSLAM at the other end. It represents pretty much
> >> the bst that you can do with the copper and current technology.
> >
> > We don't KNOW if what he gets currently is representative of that though
> > because ISPs are so variable in their performance.
>
> You mean in terms of contention?

Not exclusively at all since any traffic management scheme (which is entirely
unrelated to contention numbers) can affect the speed too.

Quite simply, the mere existence of any traffic management is a sure sign that
the ISP has inadequate bandwidth to deliver the performance your line is
capable of.


> Isn't that dependent on the DSLAM
> rather than the ISP (pace LLU unbundling)?

Not really. The exact contention that BT offers on the max product is an
official secret and they won't tell anyone but I'm advised that it is genuinely
NOT the bottleneck that some think it might be.


> What other factors are you thinking of?

The damn 'backbone' capacity (total bandwidth) that the ISP has in terms of
'centrals' typically. I did find some numbers a while back that suggested IIRC
that my ISP, IDnet has *at least* FOUR times as many centrals per customer than
my old ISP Plusnet for example.

And on top of that, the quality of the peering arrangements can affect speed
too.


> I'd be interested to see if any significant number of people have
> swapped providers and seen a significant uptick in performance.

I have. When I swapped from Plusnet to Idnet I got a huge lift in performance.
It was chalk and cheese.

Also, I trialled VM's cable service (the 4 meg one) 6 months ago now and it was
DISMAL. I was getting as low as 300 kbps at busy times. I half expected as much
so I didn't cancel Idnet btw.

Graham

Eeyore

Mark McIntyre wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:
> >
> > For the OP's benefit (and anyone else reading the thread), it might be a good idea to
> > emphasise this fact.
> >
> > If you're with a major consumer ISP, please bear in mind that you're quite likely to
> > be receiving a much poorer service than your line can support.
>
> For the OP's benefit: this is an unsubstantiated claim,

It's a FACT you blithering IDIOT.


Graham

Eeyore

Mark McIntyre wrote:

> a sensible person would try to get some substantiation (which means not taking the
> word of /anyone/ posting in a newsgroup).

Especially YOU.

The ISPs comparisons at thinkbroadband and elsewhere show the truth.

Look at Ispreview's Top 10 for broadband and show me where the consumer ISPs are will you ?

Fast.co.uk - 9.61
SurfAnyTime - 9.46
TitanADSL - 9.38
Naims - 9.38
Vispa - 9.03
Aquiss - 8.87
ADSL24 - 8.83
IDNet - 8.78
ICUK - 8.76
UKFSN - 8.38


Explain will you how badly the consumer ISPs do here.


'Head and shoulders' would be an apt description !

Graham

Kraftee

Mark McIntyre wrote:
> Eeyore wrote:
>>
>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> bornfree wrote:
>>>> My line supports 4.5MB, according to a popular ISP's website.
>>>>
>>>> I currently subscribe to an unlimited dynamic 8MB service
>>>> (£14.99), and at night I get 4.5MB (589kB/s).
>>>>
>>>> Will any other broadband provider be able to provide me with
>>>> more than 4.5MB using my current phone line? Or are they fibbing?
>>> No. That rate is set mainly by the line, a little bit by your
>>> router and a little bit by the DSLAM at the other end. It
>>> represents pretty much the bst that you can do with the copper
>>> and current technology.
>>
>> We don't KNOW if what he gets currently is representative of that
>> though because ISPs are so variable in their performance.
>
> You mean in terms of contention? Isn't that dependent on the DSLAM
> rather than the ISP (pace LLU unbundling)? What other factors are
> you thinking of?
>
> I'd be interested to see if any significant number of people have
> swapped providers and seen a significant uptick in performance.

(cough)

I moved from Plusnet (3.5Mbps) to Sky ADSL2 (4Mbps, got a total refund
of them) & ended up with BT Internet (5.5Mbps). Go on explain that
then (all are stable stable sync rates obviousely not the BRAS which
would be slightly lower & was unobtainable for SKY & BT but for
different reasons) & I haven't unofficially tweaked anything in the
local loop (mind you it's getting frustrating not being able to change
my dropwire at the present moment ;-) )

The Natural Philosopher

Mark McIntyre wrote:
> Eeyore wrote:
>>
>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> bornfree wrote:
>>>> My line supports 4.5MB, according to a popular ISP's website.
>>>>
>>>> I currently subscribe to an unlimited dynamic 8MB service (£14.99),
>>>> and at night I get 4.5MB (589kB/s).
>>>>
>>>> Will any other broadband provider be able to provide me with more than
>>>> 4.5MB using my current phone line? Or are they fibbing?
>>> No. That rate is set mainly by the line, a little bit by your router and
>>> a little bit by the DSLAM at the other end. It represents pretty much
>>> the bst that you can do with the copper and current technology.
>>
>> We don't KNOW if what he gets currently is representative of that though
>> because ISPs are so variable in their performance.
>
> You mean in terms of contention? Isn't that dependent on the DSLAM
> rather than the ISP (pace LLU unbundling)? What other factors are you
> thinking of?
>

Contention is in the backhaul, supplied by BT but of a bandwidth
specified by the ISP. And somewhat in te ISP themselves.


> I'd be interested to see if any significant number of people have
> swapped providers and seen a significant uptick in performance.

You will never get FASTER than your basic ADSL less a bit allows, but
you may get a lot SLOWER.

The Natural Philosopher

Eeyore wrote:
>
> Mark McIntyre wrote:
>
>> Eeyore wrote:
>>> For the OP's benefit (and anyone else reading the thread), it might be a good idea to
>>> emphasise this fact.
>>>
>>> If you're with a major consumer ISP, please bear in mind that you're quite likely to
>>> be receiving a much poorer service than your line can support.
>> For the OP's benefit: this is an unsubstantiated claim,
>
> It's a FACT you blithering IDIOT.
>
>
Not in my case it ain't.

> Graham
>

The Natural Philosopher

Kraftee wrote:
> Mark McIntyre wrote:
>> Eeyore wrote:
>>> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>>> bornfree wrote:
>>>>> My line supports 4.5MB, according to a popular ISP's website.
>>>>>
>>>>> I currently subscribe to an unlimited dynamic 8MB service
>>>>> (£14.99), and at night I get 4.5MB (589kB/s).
>>>>>
>>>>> Will any other broadband provider be able to provide me with
>>>>> more than 4.5MB using my current phone line? Or are they fibbing?
>>>> No. That rate is set mainly by the line, a little bit by your
>>>> router and a little bit by the DSLAM at the other end. It
>>>> represents pretty much the bst that you can do with the copper
>>>> and current technology.
>>> We don't KNOW if what he gets currently is representative of that
>>> though because ISPs are so variable in their performance.
>> You mean in terms of contention? Isn't that dependent on the DSLAM
>> rather than the ISP (pace LLU unbundling)? What other factors are
>> you thinking of?
>>
>> I'd be interested to see if any significant number of people have
>> swapped providers and seen a significant uptick in performance.
>
> (cough)
>
> I moved from Plusnet (3.5Mbps) to Sky ADSL2 (4Mbps, got a total refund
> of them) & ended up with BT Internet (5.5Mbps). Go on explain that
> then (all are stable stable sync rates obviousely not the BRAS which
> would be slightly lower & was unobtainable for SKY & BT but for
> different reasons) & I haven't unofficially tweaked anything in the
> local loop (mind you it's getting frustrating not being able to change
> my dropwire at the present moment ;-) )
>
>

unless you are going to a different DSLAM (LLU) there is *no way* that
changing ISP will get you a different synch rate.

I've had ALL of those sync rates on my line, and beyond, depending on
the *noise margin set*, and the *line condition and noise* ON THE
DAY..all on the SAME ISP.

alexd

On Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:10:16 +0000, Mark McIntyre wrote:

> Eeyore wrote:

>> We don't KNOW if what he gets currently is representative of that
>> though because ISPs are so variable in their performance.
>
> You mean in terms of contention? Isn't that dependent on the DSLAM
> rather than the ISP (pace LLU unbundling)? What other factors are you
> thinking of?

BT's network is over-engineered and unlikely to be the source of poor
performance that customers of BT IPStream resellers see. Contention is
far more likely in the ISPs internet connection and in the ISPs
connection to BT.

> I'd be interested to see if any significant number of people have
> swapped providers and seen a significant uptick in performance.

My speed nearly tripled when I moved from Griffin to Be, and although
that involved going from ADSL2 to ADSL2+, the throughput as a percentage
of the sync speed is the major change.

--
<http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) ()
17:21:12 up 27 days, 6:00, 2 users, load average: 0.16, 0.16, 0.18
Convergence, n: The act of using separate DSL circuits for voice and data

alexd

On Sat, 08 Dec 2007 16:36:44 +0000, Eeyore wrote:

> The damn 'backbone' capacity (total bandwidth) that the ISP has in terms
> of 'centrals' typically. I did find some numbers a while back that
> suggested IIRC that my ISP, IDnet has *at least* FOUR times as many
> centrals per customer than my old ISP Plusnet for example.

There's no such thing as 'a' Central. They vary in capacity from 2M to
622M, so your comparison is essentially meaningless.

--
<http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) ()
17:31:00 up 27 days, 6:10, 2 users, load average: 0.27, 0.17, 0.16
Convergence, n: The act of using separate DSL circuits for voice and data