Wim Cossement

Hello Gentoo-ers,

After almost 6 years of labor my machine finally died! :-/
But I was able to do my thing on it as an IT'er and a big part of this I
have to thank to Gentoo so I'll run it as well on my new machine but I'm
not sure what to get yet, perhaps someone could help?

It would be a PC for sure but the biggest question is about the type of
CPU I'd be using.

AMD or Intel?
How many cores?
32 or 64 bit?

I have about ¤ 1000 - 1200 to spend and I don't really need a GPU or a
screen if this might help a bit.

Could someone point out some pro's and con's (personal experiences?) and
a few possible candiates?

Thanks,

Wimmy
--
I'm sick of following my dreams!
I'll just ask where they're going and hook up with them later...

Mitch Hedberg

Mark South

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:56:32 +0100, Wim Cossement wrote:

> It would be a PC for sure but the biggest question is about the type of
> CPU I'd be using.
>
> AMD or Intel?
> How many cores?
> 32 or 64 bit?
>
> I have about € 1000 - 1200 to spend and I don't really need a GPU or a
> screen if this might help a bit.

For a new processor, go for 64-bit (can one still buy 32-bit?) and get
dualcore, they are cheap. With your budget you should be able to get a
multiprocessor mobo and run a pair of dual core processors.

I prefer AMD because they seem more cost-effective for the same kind of
performance, and the mobos that take them are also cheaper for the same
feature set.

Clock speed is less important for overall performance than memory, because
most systems spend most of their time waiting for memory. Buy as much of
the best quality memory you can get, even if it means saving a bit on the
processor speeds.

Finally, with a high performance system, set aside a good chunk of your
budget for a really good quality power supply and a really good cooling
system. It makes one sad to see €1000 of hardware fail from overheating!

David W Noon

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On Thursday 22 Nov 2007 11:56 in article <fi3q9v$af6$1@snic.vub.ac.be>
of alt.os.linux.gentoo, Wim Cossement(a@b.c) wrote:

> It would be a PC for sure but the biggest question is about the type
> of CPU I'd be using.
>
> AMD or Intel?
> How many cores?
> 32 or 64 bit?
>
> I have about ? 1000 - 1200 to spend and I don't really need a GPU or a
> screen if this might help a bit.

A new CPU also means a new motherboard. Most newer motherboards do not
support AGP video adaptors, only PCI Express -- but many have on-board
video.

AMD and Intel are both out of the 32-bit marketplace, by and large.
Virtually all consumer-grade CPUs are 64-bit these days. You might find
a Pentium 4 or Core Duo if you look hard, but they are very scarce.

On this box, I am running an Intel Core2 Duo E6600 in an Intel DG965WH
motherboard. It works quite well, but Gentoo 2007.0 will not install
very readily: you need to use the Small Gentoo recovery CD to perform
the installation. The kernel on the Gentoo 2007.0 installation CD is
too old to support the PATA controller, but the kernel on Small Gentoo
works just fine, as will the kernel you eventually install.
- --
Regards

Dave [RLU#314465]
================================================== ====
dwnoon@spamtrap.ntlworld.com (David W Noon)
Remove spam trap to reply via e-mail.
================================================== ====

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Wim Cossement

David W Noon wrote:
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>
> On Thursday 22 Nov 2007 11:56 in article <fi3q9v$af6$1@snic.vub.ac.be>
> of alt.os.linux.gentoo, Wim Cossement(a@b.c) wrote:
>
>> It would be a PC for sure but the biggest question is about the type
>> of CPU I'd be using.
>>
>> AMD or Intel?
>> How many cores?
>> 32 or 64 bit?
>>
>> I have about ? 1000 - 1200 to spend and I don't really need a GPU or a
>> screen if this might help a bit.
>
> A new CPU also means a new motherboard. Most newer motherboards do not
> support AGP video adaptors, only PCI Express -- but many have on-board
> video.

Yup, I need all but a screen and graphics card...
And I don't want a (crappy) on-board model. I would proably buy a 2nd
hand nVidia Quadro FX 'cause it needs to have hardware stereo capability.

> AMD and Intel are both out of the 32-bit marketplace, by and large.
> Virtually all consumer-grade CPUs are 64-bit these days. You might find
> a Pentium 4 or Core Duo if you look hard, but they are very scarce.

Well I lost track after school... :-)
I though running a 32 bit OS on 64 bit HW was not recommended so a
customised Gentoo would take care of this, right?
So 64 it will be.

> On this box, I am running an Intel Core2 Duo E6600 in an Intel DG965WH
> motherboard. It works quite well, but Gentoo 2007.0 will not install
> very readily: you need to use the Small Gentoo recovery CD to perform
> the installation. The kernel on the Gentoo 2007.0 installation CD is
> too old to support the PATA controller, but the kernel on Small Gentoo
> works just fine, as will the kernel you eventually install.

Here we also have a Core 2 Duo E6600 running on a MSI P965 platinum and
those things are pretty fast.
I only have problems with my IDE CD and DVD drives. After a few hours
the kernel starts spitting out stuff like:

hdb: status error: status=0x58 { DriveReady SeekComplete DataRequest }
ide: failed opcode was: unknown
hdb: drive not ready for command

every 2 seconds or so.

Wimmy
> - --
> Regards
>
> Dave

Wim Cossement

Mark South wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:56:32 +0100, Wim Cossement wrote:
>
>> It would be a PC for sure but the biggest question is about the type of
>> CPU I'd be using.
>>
>> AMD or Intel?
>> How many cores?
>> 32 or 64 bit?
>>
>> I have about � 1000 - 1200 to spend and I don't really need a GPU or a
>> screen if this might help a bit.
>
> For a new processor, go for 64-bit (can one still buy 32-bit?) and get
> dualcore, they are cheap. With your budget you should be able to get a
> multiprocessor mobo and run a pair of dual core processors.
>
> I prefer AMD because they seem more cost-effective for the same kind of
> performance, and the mobos that take them are also cheaper for the same
> feature set.

I'll check out those AMD cores, for me it's all the same. I was kinda
happy with my old Athlon XP+ 2100... :-)

> Clock speed is less important for overall performance than memory, because
> most systems spend most of their time waiting for memory. Buy as much of
> the best quality memory you can get, even if it means saving a bit on the
> processor speeds.

Well I would get 2 times 1GB at the highest speed possible (3200?) in
dual channel mode.
But do I also need to look close at all those latencies or don't they
have to big an influence?

> Finally, with a high performance system, set aside a good chunk of your
> budget for a really good quality power supply and a really good cooling
> system. It makes one sad to see �1000 of hardware fail from overheating!

Yeah, I've noticed over the years those cheap 'normal' 300 Watt supplies
can't cope with all the powedrains by modern CPU's and GPU's

Wimmy

ray

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 12:56:32 +0100, Wim Cossement wrote:

> Hello Gentoo-ers,
>
> After almost 6 years of labor my machine finally died! :-/
> But I was able to do my thing on it as an IT'er and a big part of this I
> have to thank to Gentoo so I'll run it as well on my new machine but I'm
> not sure what to get yet, perhaps someone could help?
>
> It would be a PC for sure but the biggest question is about the type of
> CPU I'd be using.
>
> AMD or Intel?

Yes. The main alternative would be via and quite frankly, their 'c' series
is not up to snuff unless you need really low power.

> How many cores?

four if you can afford it.

> 32 or 64 bit?

Yes. If you get a 64, then you have all the options.

>
> I have about € 1000 - 1200 to spend and I don't really need a GPU or a
> screen if this might help a bit.
>
> Could someone point out some pro's and con's (personal experiences?) and
> a few possible candiates?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Wimmy

J.O. Aho

Wim Cossement wrote:

> It would be a PC for sure but the biggest question is about the type of
> CPU I'd be using.
>
> AMD or Intel?
> How many cores?
> 32 or 64 bit?

Much depends on to what you will be using the computer too.

I have a variety of architectures on my computers, Sparc 64bit, PowerPC 32bit,
x86 (AMD), amd64 and at work x86_64 (Intel). Thats in reverse CPU power order
and I must say that the x86_64 feels a lot more laggish than my x86, but it
could be the crap that HP makes that makes so bad.

I favor AMD CPUs, even if they aren't as powerful as the Intels nowadays.

When it comes to the number of cores depends on how much larger you want your
power bill to be. As we have working SMP in Linux, 2+ is ok.

If you mean the CPU, 64 bit, as you will have to pay a load more to get those
few 32bit CPUs, motherboards and AGP graphics cards and you will get a quite
weak machine too.
If you mean 32/64 bit OS, then it's a bit question about who important all the
win32 codeces for the mediaplayers are for you, if not that important go for
the 64bit OS (install multilib, so you can use all the 32bit binaries).


--

//Aho

David W Noon

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On Thursday 22 Nov 2007 15:39 in article <fi47m2$evm$1@snic.vub.ac.be>
of alt.os.linux.gentoo, Wim Cossement(a@b.c) wrote:

>> On Thursday 22 Nov 2007 11:56 in article
>> <fi3q9v$af6$1@snic.vub.ac.be> of alt.os.linux.gentoo, Wim
>> Cossement(a@b.c) wrote:
[snip]
>> A new CPU also means a new motherboard. Most newer motherboards do
>> not support AGP video adaptors, only PCI Express -- but many have
>> on-board video.
>
> Yup, I need all but a screen and graphics card...

You will need a *new* graphics card, as the older ones are no longer
supported. There are no AGP slots any more.

> And I don't want a (crappy) on-board model. I would proably buy a 2nd
> hand nVidia Quadro FX 'cause it needs to have hardware stereo
> capability.

It will have to be PCI Express, above all else.

You will likely have to buy new RAM as well. The pin-outs of newer DIMMs
are different from those used 6 or 7 years ago, so your old RAM sticks
won't fit into your new motherboard.

>> AMD and Intel are both out of the 32-bit marketplace, by and large.
>> Virtually all consumer-grade CPUs are 64-bit these days. You might
>> find a Pentium 4 or Core Duo if you look hard, but they are very
>> scarce.
>
> Well I lost track after school... :-)
> I though running a 32 bit OS on 64 bit HW was not recommended so a
> customised Gentoo would take care of this, right?
> So 64 it will be.

You decide on the "bittedness" of the kernel, glibc, etc., when you do
the installation. You set the CHOST, CFLAGS and CXXFLAGS
in /etc/make.conf and you specify the processor type in the kernel
configuration: there are separate selections for AMD Hammer (Opteron,
Athlon64, etc.) and Intel EM64T (Pentium D, Core2 Duo/Quad).

>> On this box, I am running an Intel Core2 Duo E6600 in an Intel
>> DG965WH motherboard. It works quite well, but Gentoo 2007.0 will not
>> install very readily: you need to use the Small Gentoo recovery CD to
>> perform the installation. The kernel on the Gentoo 2007.0
>> installation CD is too old to support the PATA controller, but the
>> kernel on Small Gentoo works just fine, as will the kernel you
>> eventually install.
>
> Here we also have a Core 2 Duo E6600 running on a MSI P965 platinum
> and those things are pretty fast.
> I only have problems with my IDE CD and DVD drives. After a few hours
> the kernel starts spitting out stuff like:
>
> hdb: status error: status=0x58 { DriveReady SeekComplete DataRequest }
> ide: failed opcode was: unknown
> hdb: drive not ready for command
>
> every 2 seconds or so.

The /dev/hdb indicates a PATA (EIDE/ATAPI) connection for the drive,
using the old PATA driver modules in the kernel. The newer libsata
drivers configure these drives into the SCSI namespace
as /dev/sr0, /dev/sr1, etc.

If you are using a SATA interface as well as the PATA one then you have
probably configured the kernel wrongly. This is one of the touchy areas
of newer hardware under Linux.

Also, most new motherboards don't have many PATA connectors -- typically
only one. They have SATA connectors instead. Your old hard drives might
need some fiddling with adaptor connectors to get them to work very,
very slowly.

It looks to me that you are really faced with buying most of a new
system. You can probably keep your keyboard, mouse and screen.
Everything else will probably need to be upgraded.
- --
Regards

Dave [RLU#314465]
================================================== ====
dwnoon@spamtrap.ntlworld.com (David W Noon)
Remove spam trap to reply via e-mail.
================================================== ====

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Wim Cossement

David W Noon wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Thursday 22 Nov 2007 15:39 in article <fi47m2$evm$1@snic.vub.ac.be>
> of alt.os.linux.gentoo, Wim Cossement(a@b.c) wrote:
>
>>> On Thursday 22 Nov 2007 11:56 in article
>>> <fi3q9v$af6$1@snic.vub.ac.be> of alt.os.linux.gentoo, Wim
>>> Cossement(a@b.c) wrote:
> [snip]
>>> A new CPU also means a new motherboard. Most newer motherboards do
>>> not support AGP video adaptors, only PCI Express -- but many have
>>> on-board video.
>> Yup, I need all but a screen and graphics card...
>
> You will need a *new* graphics card, as the older ones are no longer
> supported. There are no AGP slots any more.

I know...

>> And I don't want a (crappy) on-board model. I would proably buy a 2nd
>> hand nVidia Quadro FX 'cause it needs to have hardware stereo
>> capability.
>
> It will have to be PCI Express, above all else.

That's for sure...

> You will likely have to buy new RAM as well. The pin-outs of newer DIMMs
> are different from those used 6 or 7 years ago, so your old RAM sticks
> won't fit into your new motherboard.

Probably DDR2 PC6400...

>>> AMD and Intel are both out of the 32-bit marketplace, by and large.
>>> Virtually all consumer-grade CPUs are 64-bit these days. You might
>>> find a Pentium 4 or Core Duo if you look hard, but they are very
>>> scarce.
>> Well I lost track after school... :-)
>> I though running a 32 bit OS on 64 bit HW was not recommended so a
>> customised Gentoo would take care of this, right?
>> So 64 it will be.
>
> You decide on the "bittedness" of the kernel, glibc, etc., when you do
> the installation. You set the CHOST, CFLAGS and CXXFLAGS
> in /etc/make.conf and you specify the processor type in the kernel
> configuration: there are separate selections for AMD Hammer (Opteron,
> Athlon64, etc.) and Intel EM64T (Pentium D, Core2 Duo/Quad).

http://gentoo-wiki.com/Safe_Cflags

>>> On this box, I am running an Intel Core2 Duo E6600 in an Intel
>>> DG965WH motherboard. It works quite well, but Gentoo 2007.0 will not
>>> install very readily: you need to use the Small Gentoo recovery CD to
>>> perform the installation. The kernel on the Gentoo 2007.0
>>> installation CD is too old to support the PATA controller, but the
>>> kernel on Small Gentoo works just fine, as will the kernel you
>>> eventually install.
>> Here we also have a Core 2 Duo E6600 running on a MSI P965 platinum
>> and those things are pretty fast.
>> I only have problems with my IDE CD and DVD drives. After a few hours
>> the kernel starts spitting out stuff like:
>>
>> hdb: status error: status=0x58 { DriveReady SeekComplete DataRequest }
>> ide: failed opcode was: unknown
>> hdb: drive not ready for command
>>
>> every 2 seconds or so.
>
> The /dev/hdb indicates a PATA (EIDE/ATAPI) connection for the drive,
> using the old PATA driver modules in the kernel. The newer libsata
> drivers configure these drives into the SCSI namespace
> as /dev/sr0, /dev/sr1, etc.
>
> If you are using a SATA interface as well as the PATA one then you have
> probably configured the kernel wrongly. This is one of the touchy areas
> of newer hardware under Linux.

The HD is SATA but the optical drives are PATA so I have to use both.
And I probably lost track a bit when the kernel started using libata...
Following the Gentoo SATA wiki now.

> Also, most new motherboards don't have many PATA connectors -- typically
> only one. They have SATA connectors instead. Your old hard drives might
> need some fiddling with adaptor connectors to get them to work very,
> very slowly.

I'll try to get an SATA only system then.

> It looks to me that you are really faced with buying most of a new
> system. You can probably keep your keyboard, mouse and screen.
> Everything else will probably need to be upgraded.

Well I'll also get a new screen and mouse, one that matches the colors :-)

Wimmy
> - --
> Regards
>
> Dave [RLU#314465]

Wim Cossement

J.O. Aho wrote:
> Wim Cossement wrote:
>
>> It would be a PC for sure but the biggest question is about the type of
>> CPU I'd be using.
>>
>> AMD or Intel?
>> How many cores?
>> 32 or 64 bit?
>
> Much depends on to what you will be using the computer too.
>
> I have a variety of architectures on my computers, Sparc 64bit, PowerPC 32bit,
> x86 (AMD), amd64 and at work x86_64 (Intel). Thats in reverse CPU power order
> and I must say that the x86_64 feels a lot more laggish than my x86, but it
> could be the crap that HP makes that makes so bad.
>
> I favor AMD CPUs, even if they aren't as powerful as the Intels nowadays.

Well I don't have any expercience yet with AMD 64 so perhaps this is a
good chance... :-)

> When it comes to the number of cores depends on how much larger you want your
> power bill to be. As we have working SMP in Linux, 2+ is ok.

I don't have to pay it but it would be nice to have something that is
capable of using less power when it's not needed.

> If you mean the CPU, 64 bit, as you will have to pay a load more to get those
> few 32bit CPUs, motherboards and AGP graphics cards and you will get a quite
> weak machine too.
> If you mean 32/64 bit OS, then it's a bit question about who important all the
> win32 codeces for the mediaplayers are for you, if not that important go for
> the 64bit OS (install multilib, so you can use all the 32bit binaries).

I won't be needing those codecs too much so that's not really an issue.

Thanks for the tips y'all

Wimmy