TechTalkz.com Logo Ask the Experts!

Go Back   TechTalkz.com Technology & Computer Troubleshooting Forums > Tech Support Archives > Hardware > Laptops

Power surge

Laptops

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 11-12-2007, 03:26 PM   #21
Euan Kerr
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Power surge

"Frank Schweppe" <tjakkeli*************> wrote in news:41c5f129$0
$26544$626a14ce@news.free.fr:

> the house has whole-house surge protection for AC and the phone

line,

I'd be interested to hear w_tom's comments on your misfortune.

Sponsored Links
 
Unread 11-12-2007, 03:27 PM   #22
w_tom
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Power surge

The purpose of surge protection is no damage even from
direct strikes. Even near misses are either trivial or
actually a direct strike.

Cited previously are typical problems associated with surge
protectors. First, surge protector is not surge protection.
Even the 'whole house' protector is not protection.
Unfortunately humans only think in terms of what they see.
Surge protection is earth ground - not observed by the human
eye and therefore ignored. If a surge causes damage, then a
followup analysis begins with surge protection - the single
point earth ground and connections to that earth ground. In
both cases, this was not even mentioned.

Again, one can install all the protectors in the world. But
without the one and the most critical component - earth ground
- then a surge protection system still will not work. A surge
protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Will that silly RJ-45 protector stop what miles of sky could
not? One must 'wish' that "surge protector = surge
protection". Reality: no earth ground means no effective
protection. Wall receptacle is not earth ground. Again, both
cases never once mentioned earthing apparently using the
assumption that "surge protector = surge protection".

Second, if damage occurs, the human must learn why he
permitted damage to happen. As in murder investigations, the
best evidence is a dead body. What was the incoming and
outgoing path through that laptop? What was damaged - a
description at the component level for each laptop?

Third, most damning are facts not mentioned in either post.
What was the single point earth ground? How was the 'whole
house' protector connected to that single point earth ground?
For example, was the earthing wire bundled with other wires
(bad)? Was connection 'less than 10 feet' (necessary)? Any
splices or sharp bends (bad)? Was the phone line and cable
also connected less than 10 feet to same ground (required)?
Without answers to these questions, then we don't even know if
the laptop had any protection. Other surge protectors mean
nothing. To say surge protection existed, one starts by
describing the 'critical' earth ground system.

Fourth, this we do know. A surge found a complete path into
and out of the laptop. We know the building has a defective
surge protection 'system' because electronics were damaged.
Even that RJ-45 phone line protector does nothing without a
'less than 10 foot' connection to *protection*. The protector
connected to a wall outlet is not earthed.

The latter case of laptop and multifunctional printer damage
even with "a surge protector/UPS of good reputation" suggests
suspect the worst. Those retail UPSes only have good
reputation among myth purveyors who promote junk science. A
"surge protector / UPS with good reputation" is a building
wide system with a critical 'less than 10 foot' connection to
earth. No plug-in UPS has a good reputation - as damage
demonstrates. Coincidentally, plug-in UPSes don't even claim
to protect from typically destructive surges. It did exactly
as its specs claim. Where is the good reputation? Only from
myths that also claim "surge protector = surge protection".

What is not mentioned is most damning in posts from Frank
Schweppe or barbibiz? Earth ground. When one thinks a
plug-in UPS has a good reputation as a surge protector and
does not even discuss earthing, then the author is a most
likely reason for failure. No earth ground means no effective
protection exists - no matter what those myth purveyors claim.

Too many unanswered questions to say exactly why damage
happened in each case. However an investigation starts with
THE surge protection - including 'primary' protection in
pictures at:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

In both cases, missing statements about THE most important
component - earth ground - are most telling. Without first
describing the surge protection 'system', then neither post
tells us if surge protection even existed. Clearly damage
occurred meaning the surge protection 'system' is defective or
missing. But what is missing? Neither post even mentions
surge protection - single point earth ground. Does it exist
or is it just improperly installed? "IT" is not even
mentioned.

Euan Kerr wrote:
> "Frank Schweppe" <tjakkeli*************> wrote in news:41c5f129$0
> $26544$626a14ce@news.free.fr:
>> the house has whole-house surge protection for AC and the
>> phone line,

>
> I'd be interested to hear w_tom's comments on your misfortune.

 
Unread 11-12-2007, 03:27 PM   #23
w_tom
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Power surge

The purpose of surge protection is no damage even from
direct strikes. Even near misses are either trivial or
actually a direct strike.

Cited previously are typical problems associated with surge
protectors. First, surge protector is not surge protection.
Even the 'whole house' protector is not protection.
Unfortunately humans only think in terms of what they see.
Surge protection is earth ground - not observed by the human
eye and therefore ignored. If a surge causes damage, then a
followup analysis begins with surge protection - the single
point earth ground and connections to that earth ground. In
both cases, this was not even mentioned.

Again, one can install all the protectors in the world. But
without the one and the most critical component - earth ground
- then a surge protection system still will not work. A surge
protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Will that silly RJ-45 protector stop what miles of sky could
not? One must 'wish' that "surge protector = surge
protection". Reality: no earth ground means no effective
protection. Wall receptacle is not earth ground. Again, both
cases never once mentioned earthing apparently using the
assumption that "surge protector = surge protection".

Second, if damage occurs, the human must learn why he
permitted damage to happen. As in murder investigations, the
best evidence is a dead body. What was the incoming and
outgoing path through that laptop? What was damaged - a
description at the component level for each laptop?

Third, most damning are facts not mentioned in either post.
What was the single point earth ground? How was the 'whole
house' protector connected to that single point earth ground?
For example, was the earthing wire bundled with other wires
(bad)? Was connection 'less than 10 feet' (necessary)? Any
splices or sharp bends (bad)? Was the phone line and cable
also connected less than 10 feet to same ground (required)?
Without answers to these questions, then we don't even know if
the laptop had any protection. Other surge protectors mean
nothing. To say surge protection existed, one starts by
describing the 'critical' earth ground system.

Fourth, this we do know. A surge found a complete path into
and out of the laptop. We know the building has a defective
surge protection 'system' because electronics were damaged.
Even that RJ-45 phone line protector does nothing without a
'less than 10 foot' connection to *protection*. The protector
connected to a wall outlet is not earthed.

The latter case of laptop and multifunctional printer damage
even with "a surge protector/UPS of good reputation" suggests
suspect the worst. Those retail UPSes only have good
reputation among myth purveyors who promote junk science. A
"surge protector / UPS with good reputation" is a building
wide system with a critical 'less than 10 foot' connection to
earth. No plug-in UPS has a good reputation - as damage
demonstrates. Coincidentally, plug-in UPSes don't even claim
to protect from typically destructive surges. It did exactly
as its specs claim. Where is the good reputation? Only from
myths that also claim "surge protector = surge protection".

What is not mentioned is most damning in posts from Frank
Schweppe or barbibiz? Earth ground. When one thinks a
plug-in UPS has a good reputation as a surge protector and
does not even discuss earthing, then the author is a most
likely reason for failure. No earth ground means no effective
protection exists - no matter what those myth purveyors claim.

Too many unanswered questions to say exactly why damage
happened in each case. However an investigation starts with
THE surge protection - including 'primary' protection in
pictures at:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

In both cases, missing statements about THE most important
component - earth ground - are most telling. Without first
describing the surge protection 'system', then neither post
tells us if surge protection even existed. Clearly damage
occurred meaning the surge protection 'system' is defective or
missing. But what is missing? Neither post even mentions
surge protection - single point earth ground. Does it exist
or is it just improperly installed? "IT" is not even
mentioned.

Euan Kerr wrote:
> "Frank Schweppe" <tjakkeli*************> wrote in news:41c5f129$0
> $26544$626a14ce@news.free.fr:
>> the house has whole-house surge protection for AC and the
>> phone line,

>
> I'd be interested to hear w_tom's comments on your misfortune.

 
Unread 25-12-2008, 01:03 AM   #24
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Age: 59
Posts: 1
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0 fschwep is an unknown quantity at this point


Windows XP


Re: Power surge

Sponsored Links
Quote:
Originally Posted by w_tom View Post
The purpose of surge protection is no damage even from
direct strikes. Even near misses are either trivial or
actually a direct strike.

Cited previously are typical problems associated with surge
protectors. First, surge protector is not surge protection.
Even the 'whole house' protector is not protection.
Unfortunately humans only think in terms of what they see.
Surge protection is earth ground - not observed by the human
eye and therefore ignored. If a surge causes damage, then a
followup analysis begins with surge protection - the single
point earth ground and connections to that earth ground. In
both cases, this was not even mentioned.

In both cases, missing statements about THE most important
component - earth ground - are most telling. Without first
describing the surge protection 'system', then neither post
tells us if surge protection even existed. Clearly damage
occurred meaning the surge protection 'system' is defective or
missing. But what is missing? Neither post even mentions
surge protection - single point earth ground. Does it exist
or is it just improperly installed? "IT" is not even
mentioned.

Euan Kerr wrote:
> "Frank Schweppe" <tjakkeli*************> wrote in news:41c5f129$0
> $26544$626a14ce@news.free.fr:
>> the house has whole-house surge protection for AC and the
>> phone line,

>
> I'd be interested to hear w_tom's comments on your misfortune.
I'm jumping back in here a long time later... Just to mention that the whole-house surge protection I mentioned is connected to ground, that the fuse box where the surge protector is situated is at eye height and the ground wire goes almost straight down to the ground from there, that the grounding is in fact a whole LENGTH of at least ten metres of copper wire dug into a trench along the whole front side of the house (I saw that when the house was built), and that the phone entry is just on top of the same fuse box and grounded the same way. The whole electric system including the grounding system was built from the ground up according to recent (2002) French standards by a certified electrician. Every wall outlet in the house is grounded (back through the fuse box), and there is a differential trip relay that rapidly shuts down the power in case of a short circuit as well, so you can't electrocute yourself.
Tom is obviously the expert here, and I'm sure that the actual distance to ground is as important as he says, thus that most small UPS backup systems are not as functional in real life as the manufacturers would want us to believe. I'm using APC Back-UPS systems, by the way. For me the battery backup is more important than the surge protection, as a hard disk can crash pretty awful if the power is suddenly cut off in the middle of write operations. Supposedly the UPS takes care of some current stabilisation to avoid excessive wear in case of brownouts and power dips that may go largely unnoticed.

Sponsored Links
fschwep is offline  
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes



< Home - Windows Help - MS Office Help - Hardware Support >


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 09:46 PM.


vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2005-2016, TechTalkz.com. All Rights Reserved - Privacy Policy
Valid XHTML 1.0 Transitional