Cheryl D Wise

As I said we are never going to agree on this.

1. I don't use "next - back" links except in things like photo galleries or
tutorials. Then they are very limited in scope and usually only part of the
navigation such as

Page 4 of 6 next page
1 2 3 <strong>4</strong> 5 6

(Note I don't use anything but plain text on groups so the "next page" would
be a link and each of the page numbers would be a link.

For photo galleries I tend to use something like PVII Image Gallery
(Dreamweaver Extension, but I'm hoping to convince Al they need to create
Expression ones too), Moo Tools or one of the other gallery creating
programs.

2. Creating a simple unordered list is not to me complex since I can name
the links whatever I want. If I recall correctly FP uses the page title
which either results in poor seo or lengthy menu titles.

3. Unless my memory is faulty only way to do "sublayers" which I take to
mean submenu navigation is to add additional FP webbot generated menus which
isn't exactly my idea of a good way to handle section menus. The nested
unordered lists I use allows for flyouts or dropdowns to be created for
those sections easily. That's how the CSS Expression menus work for
dropdowns.

4. I will agree that the help file in Expression Web could use help itself.
There are many areas that don't have the documentation I think appropriate.
On the other hand if it did then nobody would need to buy any books like
mine. <g>

--
Cheryl D Wise
MS MVP Expression
Author: Foundations of Microsoft Expression Web
http://by-expression.com
mail list: http://groups.google.com/group/by-ex...n-web-designer


"Falcon42" <Falcon42@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:593ADB88-FEF0-4A69-9F81-CB8A1CFD52F0@microsoft.com...
> Thanks for your reply Rob.
> Whilst having links update during manually crafting a web site's
> navigation
> is good, this does not really detract from the primary issue being that
> EW2
> requires such manual crafting/maintenance in the first place!
> Regarding your other comment, can you advise as to how DWTs/includes
> provides for complex site management (such as a site having multiple
> layers
> of sub-sections, need for back/next/up links, etc.)? EW2 Help seems to be
> ignorant of this?
> Pending further, at present I sadly have to remain of the view that EW2 is
> unsuitable for a significant proportion of FP users.
>
>
> "Rob Giordano (Crash)" wrote:
>
>> inline...
>>
>>
>> --
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> Rob Giordano
>> Microsoft MVP Expression
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Falcon42" <Falcon42@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:2583D8FD-F890-4C06-8190-1235BA0423C6@microsoft.com...
>> > Your responses very much appreciated Cheryl.
>> > Some further in and amongst below.
>> >
>> > "Cheryl D Wise" wrote:
>> >
>> >> When you drag a file in folder view all links will be updated. Drag a
>> >> link
>> >> from one part of the navigation to another and it will update.
>> > You refer to "the navigation" yet this concept does not seem to be
>> > directly
>> > supported in EW2 at all.
>> > Is what you mean: "when you make an amendment within your manually
>> > defined
>> > navigation structure, links will update."?
>> > Yet I don't seem to be able to find any clearly defined methods to
>> > manage
>> > this.
>> > Rather feels like it's everyone's best ideas forward and good luck
>> > devising
>> > your own navigation system for yourself (or buy a 3rd party add-on/tool
>> > to
>> > help accomplish)!
>> > This frankly falls well short of an acceptable migration strategy from
>> > the
>> > ease of use implicit in FP.
>>
>> Sure it does...links will be updated, same as in FP - as long as you're
>> working with a web site opened and not loose pages.
>>
>> This is why Cheryl mentioned DWTs & includes...build your menu in one
>> place
>> (DWT or include) update there...all links will be updated.
>

Falcon42

Bless you Cheryl!
Agreed creating simple lists is a trivial exercise, as you rightly describe.
However implementing this for anything other than the most trivial of site
structures results in simple exercise x multiple pages/instances/variations =
significant work may result. Subsequent modifications/reorganisation of pages
also may become decidely non-trivial.
What I meant when I referred to layers/sub-sections was simply the tree-like
structure FP Navigation View most readily provides (apologies for the poor
use of nonclementure!), which of course requires nothing but the simplest of
navigation bar to instance.
I personally would prefer the EW team prioritised providing equivalent
functionality to the product this is supposed to supersede (or at the very
least a supported, reasonable migration path) over worrying about more
sophisticated features such as image galleries!
The navigation features implicit to FP seem to have been singularly ignored
in EW2.

Frankly expect better from the product team.

I concur that this "innovation" will be very likely to generate a
significant new stream of income for professional web developers!!!
RE the help file, I don't lay that one at the EW2 team's door - IMHO the
_help engine_ used across the whole Office range is really poor compared to
preceding product versions.

"Cheryl D Wise" wrote:

> As I said we are never going to agree on this.
>
> 1. I don't use "next - back" links except in things like photo galleries or
> tutorials. Then they are very limited in scope and usually only part of the
> navigation such as
>
> Page 4 of 6 next page
> 1 2 3 <strong>4</strong> 5 6
>
> (Note I don't use anything but plain text on groups so the "next page" would
> be a link and each of the page numbers would be a link.
>
> For photo galleries I tend to use something like PVII Image Gallery
> (Dreamweaver Extension, but I'm hoping to convince Al they need to create
> Expression ones too), Moo Tools or one of the other gallery creating
> programs.
>
> 2. Creating a simple unordered list is not to me complex since I can name
> the links whatever I want. If I recall correctly FP uses the page title
> which either results in poor seo or lengthy menu titles.
>
> 3. Unless my memory is faulty only way to do "sublayers" which I take to
> mean submenu navigation is to add additional FP webbot generated menus which
> isn't exactly my idea of a good way to handle section menus. The nested
> unordered lists I use allows for flyouts or dropdowns to be created for
> those sections easily. That's how the CSS Expression menus work for
> dropdowns.
>
> 4. I will agree that the help file in Expression Web could use help itself.
> There are many areas that don't have the documentation I think appropriate.
> On the other hand if it did then nobody would need to buy any books like
> mine. <g>
>
> --
> Cheryl D Wise
> MS MVP Expression
> Author: Foundations of Microsoft Expression Web
> http://by-expression.com
> mail list: http://groups.google.com/group/by-ex...n-web-designer
>
>
> "Falcon42" <Falcon42@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:593ADB88-FEF0-4A69-9F81-CB8A1CFD52F0@microsoft.com...
> > Thanks for your reply Rob.
> > Whilst having links update during manually crafting a web site's
> > navigation
> > is good, this does not really detract from the primary issue being that
> > EW2
> > requires such manual crafting/maintenance in the first place!
> > Regarding your other comment, can you advise as to how DWTs/includes
> > provides for complex site management (such as a site having multiple
> > layers
> > of sub-sections, need for back/next/up links, etc.)? EW2 Help seems to be
> > ignorant of this?
> > Pending further, at present I sadly have to remain of the view that EW2 is
> > unsuitable for a significant proportion of FP users.
> >
> >
> > "Rob Giordano (Crash)" wrote:
> >
> >> inline...
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> Rob Giordano
> >> Microsoft MVP Expression
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "Falcon42" <Falcon42@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> >> news:2583D8FD-F890-4C06-8190-1235BA0423C6@microsoft.com...
> >> > Your responses very much appreciated Cheryl.
> >> > Some further in and amongst below.
> >> >
> >> > "Cheryl D Wise" wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> When you drag a file in folder view all links will be updated. Drag a
> >> >> link
> >> >> from one part of the navigation to another and it will update.
> >> > You refer to "the navigation" yet this concept does not seem to be
> >> > directly
> >> > supported in EW2 at all.
> >> > Is what you mean: "when you make an amendment within your manually
> >> > defined
> >> > navigation structure, links will update."?
> >> > Yet I don't seem to be able to find any clearly defined methods to
> >> > manage
> >> > this.
> >> > Rather feels like it's everyone's best ideas forward and good luck
> >> > devising
> >> > your own navigation system for yourself (or buy a 3rd party add-on/tool
> >> > to
> >> > help accomplish)!
> >> > This frankly falls well short of an acceptable migration strategy from
> >> > the
> >> > ease of use implicit in FP.
> >>
> >> Sure it does...links will be updated, same as in FP - as long as you're
> >> working with a web site opened and not loose pages.
> >>
> >> This is why Cheryl mentioned DWTs & includes...build your menu in one
> >> place
> >> (DWT or include) update there...all links will be updated.
> >
>
>

Cheryl D Wise

Have you looked at the CSS Express menu I posted a link to? That is exactly
what it looks like without style - a treeview.

Category1
item 1
item 2
item 3
item 4
Category 2
link 1
link 2

If you want even more levels you can do it with additional nested lists.
One of the earliest version was less accessible to screen reader users but
allows 3-5 levels of submenus or branches all with flyouts.

If in the above menu I wanted to move item 4 to Category 2 all I need to do
is in design view click anywhere, select the li element from the breadcrumb
at the top (just to make sure I get it all) then drag it from underneath
Category 1 to Category 2 or make it a new Category 3. Trivial all the way
around.

Bonus, I can use the same include but put inside a different CSS div and
have my nice neat sitemap.

--
Cheryl D Wise
MS MVP Expression
Author: Foundations of Microsoft Expression Web
http://by-expression.com
mail list: http://groups.google.com/group/by-ex...n-web-designer


"Falcon42" <Falcon42@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:0D907AE0-E62C-4F27-9DB4-55A8B91AE208@microsoft.com...
> Bless you Cheryl!
> Agreed creating simple lists is a trivial exercise, as you rightly
> describe.
> However implementing this for anything other than the most trivial of site
> structures results in simple exercise x multiple
> pages/instances/variations =
> significant work may result. Subsequent modifications/reorganisation of
> pages
> also may become decidely non-trivial.
> What I meant when I referred to layers/sub-sections was simply the
> tree-like
> structure FP Navigation View most readily provides (apologies for the poor
> use of nonclementure!), which of course requires nothing but the simplest
> of
> navigation bar to instance.
> I personally would prefer the EW team prioritised providing equivalent
> functionality to the product this is supposed to supersede (or at the very
> least a supported, reasonable migration path) over worrying about more
> sophisticated features such as image galleries!
> The navigation features implicit to FP seem to have been singularly
> ignored
> in EW2.
>
> Frankly expect better from the product team.
>
> I concur that this "innovation" will be very likely to generate a
> significant new stream of income for professional web developers!!!
> RE the help file, I don't lay that one at the EW2 team's door - IMHO the
> _help engine_ used across the whole Office range is really poor compared
> to
> preceding product versions.
>
> "Cheryl D Wise" wrote:
>
>> As I said we are never going to agree on this.
>>
>> 1. I don't use "next - back" links except in things like photo galleries
>> or
>> tutorials. Then they are very limited in scope and usually only part of
>> the
>> navigation such as
>>
>> Page 4 of 6 next page
>> 1 2 3 <strong>4</strong> 5 6
>>
>> (Note I don't use anything but plain text on groups so the "next page"
>> would
>> be a link and each of the page numbers would be a link.
>>
>> For photo galleries I tend to use something like PVII Image Gallery
>> (Dreamweaver Extension, but I'm hoping to convince Al they need to create
>> Expression ones too), Moo Tools or one of the other gallery creating
>> programs.
>>
>> 2. Creating a simple unordered list is not to me complex since I can name
>> the links whatever I want. If I recall correctly FP uses the page title
>> which either results in poor seo or lengthy menu titles.
>>
>> 3. Unless my memory is faulty only way to do "sublayers" which I take to
>> mean submenu navigation is to add additional FP webbot generated menus
>> which
>> isn't exactly my idea of a good way to handle section menus. The nested
>> unordered lists I use allows for flyouts or dropdowns to be created for
>> those sections easily. That's how the CSS Expression menus work for
>> dropdowns.
>>
>> 4. I will agree that the help file in Expression Web could use help
>> itself.
>> There are many areas that don't have the documentation I think
>> appropriate.
>> On the other hand if it did then nobody would need to buy any books like
>> mine. <g>
>>
>> --
>> Cheryl D Wise
>> MS MVP Expression
>> Author: Foundations of Microsoft Expression Web
>> http://by-expression.com
>> mail list: http://groups.google.com/group/by-ex...n-web-designer
>>
>>
>> "Falcon42" <Falcon42@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:593ADB88-FEF0-4A69-9F81-CB8A1CFD52F0@microsoft.com...
>> > Thanks for your reply Rob.
>> > Whilst having links update during manually crafting a web site's
>> > navigation
>> > is good, this does not really detract from the primary issue being that
>> > EW2
>> > requires such manual crafting/maintenance in the first place!
>> > Regarding your other comment, can you advise as to how DWTs/includes
>> > provides for complex site management (such as a site having multiple
>> > layers
>> > of sub-sections, need for back/next/up links, etc.)? EW2 Help seems to
>> > be
>> > ignorant of this?
>> > Pending further, at present I sadly have to remain of the view that EW2
>> > is
>> > unsuitable for a significant proportion of FP users.
>> >
>> >
>> > "Rob Giordano (Crash)" wrote:
>> >
>> >> inline...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >> Rob Giordano
>> >> Microsoft MVP Expression
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "Falcon42" <Falcon42@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:2583D8FD-F890-4C06-8190-1235BA0423C6@microsoft.com...
>> >> > Your responses very much appreciated Cheryl.
>> >> > Some further in and amongst below.
>> >> >
>> >> > "Cheryl D Wise" wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> When you drag a file in folder view all links will be updated. Drag
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> link
>> >> >> from one part of the navigation to another and it will update.
>> >> > You refer to "the navigation" yet this concept does not seem to be
>> >> > directly
>> >> > supported in EW2 at all.
>> >> > Is what you mean: "when you make an amendment within your manually
>> >> > defined
>> >> > navigation structure, links will update."?
>> >> > Yet I don't seem to be able to find any clearly defined methods to
>> >> > manage
>> >> > this.
>> >> > Rather feels like it's everyone's best ideas forward and good luck
>> >> > devising
>> >> > your own navigation system for yourself (or buy a 3rd party
>> >> > add-on/tool
>> >> > to
>> >> > help accomplish)!
>> >> > This frankly falls well short of an acceptable migration strategy
>> >> > from
>> >> > the
>> >> > ease of use implicit in FP.
>> >>
>> >> Sure it does...links will be updated, same as in FP - as long as
>> >> you're
>> >> working with a web site opened and not loose pages.
>> >>
>> >> This is why Cheryl mentioned DWTs & includes...build your menu in one
>> >> place
>> >> (DWT or include) update there...all links will be updated.
>> >
>>
>>

Falcon42

Unfortunately for me I was rather expecting that I wouldn't need to purchase
a 3rd party utility to provide what I integrally had in the preceding product
version.

Silly me!
Actually, consider it a very poor show really.
At this time, I'm afraid until needs becomes considerably more pressing, I
simply can't recommend (to most of my customers, I should say) considering
all the additional costs inferred and implied by moving from FP to EW2,
despite sincerely wishing for its more standards compliant brave new world!

"Cheryl D Wise" wrote:

> Have you looked at the CSS Express menu I posted a link to? That is exactly
> what it looks like without style - a treeview.
>
> Category1
> item 1
> item 2
> item 3
> item 4
> Category 2
> link 1
> link 2
>
> If you want even more levels you can do it with additional nested lists.
> One of the earliest version was less accessible to screen reader users but
> allows 3-5 levels of submenus or branches all with flyouts.
>
> If in the above menu I wanted to move item 4 to Category 2 all I need to do
> is in design view click anywhere, select the li element from the breadcrumb
> at the top (just to make sure I get it all) then drag it from underneath
> Category 1 to Category 2 or make it a new Category 3. Trivial all the way
> around.
>
> Bonus, I can use the same include but put inside a different CSS div and
> have my nice neat sitemap.
>
> --
> Cheryl D Wise
> MS MVP Expression
> Author: Foundations of Microsoft Expression Web
> http://by-expression.com
> mail list: http://groups.google.com/group/by-ex...n-web-designer
>
>
> "Falcon42" <Falcon42@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:0D907AE0-E62C-4F27-9DB4-55A8B91AE208@microsoft.com...
> > Bless you Cheryl!
> > Agreed creating simple lists is a trivial exercise, as you rightly
> > describe.
> > However implementing this for anything other than the most trivial of site
> > structures results in simple exercise x multiple
> > pages/instances/variations =
> > significant work may result. Subsequent modifications/reorganisation of
> > pages
> > also may become decidely non-trivial.
> > What I meant when I referred to layers/sub-sections was simply the
> > tree-like
> > structure FP Navigation View most readily provides (apologies for the poor
> > use of nonclementure!), which of course requires nothing but the simplest
> > of
> > navigation bar to instance.
> > I personally would prefer the EW team prioritised providing equivalent
> > functionality to the product this is supposed to supersede (or at the very
> > least a supported, reasonable migration path) over worrying about more
> > sophisticated features such as image galleries!
> > The navigation features implicit to FP seem to have been singularly
> > ignored
> > in EW2.
> >
> > Frankly expect better from the product team.
> >
> > I concur that this "innovation" will be very likely to generate a
> > significant new stream of income for professional web developers!!!
> > RE the help file, I don't lay that one at the EW2 team's door - IMHO the
> > _help engine_ used across the whole Office range is really poor compared
> > to
> > preceding product versions.
> >
> > "Cheryl D Wise" wrote:
> >
> >> As I said we are never going to agree on this.
> >>
> >> 1. I don't use "next - back" links except in things like photo galleries
> >> or
> >> tutorials. Then they are very limited in scope and usually only part of
> >> the
> >> navigation such as
> >>
> >> Page 4 of 6 next page
> >> 1 2 3 <strong>4</strong> 5 6
> >>
> >> (Note I don't use anything but plain text on groups so the "next page"
> >> would
> >> be a link and each of the page numbers would be a link.
> >>
> >> For photo galleries I tend to use something like PVII Image Gallery
> >> (Dreamweaver Extension, but I'm hoping to convince Al they need to create
> >> Expression ones too), Moo Tools or one of the other gallery creating
> >> programs.
> >>
> >> 2. Creating a simple unordered list is not to me complex since I can name
> >> the links whatever I want. If I recall correctly FP uses the page title
> >> which either results in poor seo or lengthy menu titles.
> >>
> >> 3. Unless my memory is faulty only way to do "sublayers" which I take to
> >> mean submenu navigation is to add additional FP webbot generated menus
> >> which
> >> isn't exactly my idea of a good way to handle section menus. The nested
> >> unordered lists I use allows for flyouts or dropdowns to be created for
> >> those sections easily. That's how the CSS Expression menus work for
> >> dropdowns.
> >>
> >> 4. I will agree that the help file in Expression Web could use help
> >> itself.
> >> There are many areas that don't have the documentation I think
> >> appropriate.
> >> On the other hand if it did then nobody would need to buy any books like
> >> mine. <g>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Cheryl D Wise
> >> MS MVP Expression
> >> Author: Foundations of Microsoft Expression Web
> >> http://by-expression.com
> >> mail list: http://groups.google.com/group/by-ex...n-web-designer
> >>
> >>
> >> "Falcon42" <Falcon42@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> >> news:593ADB88-FEF0-4A69-9F81-CB8A1CFD52F0@microsoft.com...
> >> > Thanks for your reply Rob.
> >> > Whilst having links update during manually crafting a web site's
> >> > navigation
> >> > is good, this does not really detract from the primary issue being that
> >> > EW2
> >> > requires such manual crafting/maintenance in the first place!
> >> > Regarding your other comment, can you advise as to how DWTs/includes
> >> > provides for complex site management (such as a site having multiple
> >> > layers
> >> > of sub-sections, need for back/next/up links, etc.)? EW2 Help seems to
> >> > be
> >> > ignorant of this?
> >> > Pending further, at present I sadly have to remain of the view that EW2
> >> > is
> >> > unsuitable for a significant proportion of FP users.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > "Rob Giordano (Crash)" wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> inline...
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> >> Rob Giordano
> >> >> Microsoft MVP Expression
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> "Falcon42" <Falcon42@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> >> >> news:2583D8FD-F890-4C06-8190-1235BA0423C6@microsoft.com...
> >> >> > Your responses very much appreciated Cheryl.
> >> >> > Some further in and amongst below.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "Cheryl D Wise" wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> When you drag a file in folder view all links will be updated. Drag
> >> >> >> a
> >> >> >> link
> >> >> >> from one part of the navigation to another and it will update.
> >> >> > You refer to "the navigation" yet this concept does not seem to be
> >> >> > directly
> >> >> > supported in EW2 at all.
> >> >> > Is what you mean: "when you make an amendment within your manually
> >> >> > defined
> >> >> > navigation structure, links will update."?
> >> >> > Yet I don't seem to be able to find any clearly defined methods to
> >> >> > manage
> >> >> > this.
> >> >> > Rather feels like it's everyone's best ideas forward and good luck
> >> >> > devising
> >> >> > your own navigation system for yourself (or buy a 3rd party
> >> >> > add-on/tool
> >> >> > to
> >> >> > help accomplish)!
> >> >> > This frankly falls well short of an acceptable migration strategy
> >> >> > from
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > ease of use implicit in FP.
> >> >>
> >> >> Sure it does...links will be updated, same as in FP - as long as
> >> >> you're
> >> >> working with a web site opened and not loose pages.
> >> >>
> >> >> This is why Cheryl mentioned DWTs & includes...build your menu in one
> >> >> place
> >> >> (DWT or include) update there...all links will be updated.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
>
>

Cheryl D Wise

I think I'll drop out of this thread now. Clearly you haven't looked at any
of my links because nothing I posted costs a dime. No one program can do
everything related to a website well. Trying to do everything only leads to
poor sites. Personally I use in alphabetical order Acrobat, Dreamweaver,
Expression Web, Filezilla, Fireworks, PhotoShop, SharePoint (Designer and
Server for certain extranet projects)Swish, TopStyle, Visual Web Developer
Express, Visual Studio, WS-FTP Pro.

I also work with a variety of CMS (Content Management System) ranging from
Content Seed to Community Server to various PHP programs. Then there are the
shopping carts from the free PayPal ones to StoreFront.net (expensive and a
pain in my opinion) and ZenCart.

For many of my clients something like Content Seed is the best alternative.
For others they don't ever want to do anything more than send me what goes
up. As a professional it is my job to create something that meets their
needs and that doesn't mean whining about the loss of a proprietary feature
in one out of date program. (Yes, FrontPage 2003 is a decent web editor but
it requires some skill to use it properly and avoid the IE only code that
can reach out a bite someone in the multibrowser internet world.) Sorry if
you don't like it but the web has changed and either move with it or stay in
the past. The choice is yours.

--
Cheryl D Wise
MS MVP Expression
Author: Foundations of Microsoft Expression Web
http://by-expression.com
mail list: http://groups.google.com/group/by-ex...n-web-designer


"Falcon42" <Falcon42@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:2F2864CB-8758-4D6A-8F80-8128F0D0C03F@microsoft.com...
> Unfortunately for me I was rather expecting that I wouldn't need to
> purchase
> a 3rd party utility to provide what I integrally had in the preceding
> product
> version.
>
> Silly me!
> Actually, consider it a very poor show really.
> At this time, I'm afraid until needs becomes considerably more pressing, I
> simply can't recommend (to most of my customers, I should say) considering
> all the additional costs inferred and implied by moving from FP to EW2,
> despite sincerely wishing for its more standards compliant brave new
> world!
>
> "Cheryl D Wise" wrote:
>
>> Have you looked at the CSS Express menu I posted a link to? That is
>> exactly
>> what it looks like without style - a treeview.
>>
>> Category1
>> item 1
>> item 2
>> item 3
>> item 4
>> Category 2
>> link 1
>> link 2
>>
>> If you want even more levels you can do it with additional nested lists.
>> One of the earliest version was less accessible to screen reader users
>> but
>> allows 3-5 levels of submenus or branches all with flyouts.
>>
>> If in the above menu I wanted to move item 4 to Category 2 all I need to
>> do
>> is in design view click anywhere, select the li element from the
>> breadcrumb
>> at the top (just to make sure I get it all) then drag it from underneath
>> Category 1 to Category 2 or make it a new Category 3. Trivial all the way
>> around.
>>
>> Bonus, I can use the same include but put inside a different CSS div and
>> have my nice neat sitemap.
>>
>> --
>> Cheryl D Wise
>> MS MVP Expression
>> Author: Foundations of Microsoft Expression Web
>> http://by-expression.com
>> mail list: http://groups.google.com/group/by-ex...n-web-designer
>>
>>
>> "Falcon42" <Falcon42@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:0D907AE0-E62C-4F27-9DB4-55A8B91AE208@microsoft.com...
>> > Bless you Cheryl!
>> > Agreed creating simple lists is a trivial exercise, as you rightly
>> > describe.
>> > However implementing this for anything other than the most trivial of
>> > site
>> > structures results in simple exercise x multiple
>> > pages/instances/variations =
>> > significant work may result. Subsequent modifications/reorganisation of
>> > pages
>> > also may become decidely non-trivial.
>> > What I meant when I referred to layers/sub-sections was simply the
>> > tree-like
>> > structure FP Navigation View most readily provides (apologies for the
>> > poor
>> > use of nonclementure!), which of course requires nothing but the
>> > simplest
>> > of
>> > navigation bar to instance.
>> > I personally would prefer the EW team prioritised providing equivalent
>> > functionality to the product this is supposed to supersede (or at the
>> > very
>> > least a supported, reasonable migration path) over worrying about more
>> > sophisticated features such as image galleries!
>> > The navigation features implicit to FP seem to have been singularly
>> > ignored
>> > in EW2.
>> >
>> > Frankly expect better from the product team.
>> >
>> > I concur that this "innovation" will be very likely to generate a
>> > significant new stream of income for professional web developers!!!
>> > RE the help file, I don't lay that one at the EW2 team's door - IMHO
>> > the
>> > _help engine_ used across the whole Office range is really poor
>> > compared
>> > to
>> > preceding product versions.
>> >
>> > "Cheryl D Wise" wrote:
>> >
>> >> As I said we are never going to agree on this.
>> >>
>> >> 1. I don't use "next - back" links except in things like photo
>> >> galleries
>> >> or
>> >> tutorials. Then they are very limited in scope and usually only part
>> >> of
>> >> the
>> >> navigation such as
>> >>
>> >> Page 4 of 6 next page
>> >> 1 2 3 <strong>4</strong> 5 6
>> >>
>> >> (Note I don't use anything but plain text on groups so the "next page"
>> >> would
>> >> be a link and each of the page numbers would be a link.
>> >>
>> >> For photo galleries I tend to use something like PVII Image Gallery
>> >> (Dreamweaver Extension, but I'm hoping to convince Al they need to
>> >> create
>> >> Expression ones too), Moo Tools or one of the other gallery creating
>> >> programs.
>> >>
>> >> 2. Creating a simple unordered list is not to me complex since I can
>> >> name
>> >> the links whatever I want. If I recall correctly FP uses the page
>> >> title
>> >> which either results in poor seo or lengthy menu titles.
>> >>
>> >> 3. Unless my memory is faulty only way to do "sublayers" which I take
>> >> to
>> >> mean submenu navigation is to add additional FP webbot generated menus
>> >> which
>> >> isn't exactly my idea of a good way to handle section menus. The
>> >> nested
>> >> unordered lists I use allows for flyouts or dropdowns to be created
>> >> for
>> >> those sections easily. That's how the CSS Expression menus work for
>> >> dropdowns.
>> >>
>> >> 4. I will agree that the help file in Expression Web could use help
>> >> itself.
>> >> There are many areas that don't have the documentation I think
>> >> appropriate.
>> >> On the other hand if it did then nobody would need to buy any books
>> >> like
>> >> mine. <g>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Cheryl D Wise
>> >> MS MVP Expression
>> >> Author: Foundations of Microsoft Expression Web
>> >> http://by-expression.com
>> >> mail list: http://groups.google.com/group/by-ex...n-web-designer
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "Falcon42" <Falcon42@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> >> news:593ADB88-FEF0-4A69-9F81-CB8A1CFD52F0@microsoft.com...
>> >> > Thanks for your reply Rob.
>> >> > Whilst having links update during manually crafting a web site's
>> >> > navigation
>> >> > is good, this does not really detract from the primary issue being
>> >> > that
>> >> > EW2
>> >> > requires such manual crafting/maintenance in the first place!
>> >> > Regarding your other comment, can you advise as to how DWTs/includes
>> >> > provides for complex site management (such as a site having multiple
>> >> > layers
>> >> > of sub-sections, need for back/next/up links, etc.)? EW2 Help seems
>> >> > to
>> >> > be
>> >> > ignorant of this?
>> >> > Pending further, at present I sadly have to remain of the view that
>> >> > EW2
>> >> > is
>> >> > unsuitable for a significant proportion of FP users.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > "Rob Giordano (Crash)" wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> inline...
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >> >> Rob Giordano
>> >> >> Microsoft MVP Expression
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "Falcon42" <Falcon42@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> >> >> news:2583D8FD-F890-4C06-8190-1235BA0423C6@microsoft.com...
>> >> >> > Your responses very much appreciated Cheryl.
>> >> >> > Some further in and amongst below.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > "Cheryl D Wise" wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> When you drag a file in folder view all links will be updated.
>> >> >> >> Drag
>> >> >> >> a
>> >> >> >> link
>> >> >> >> from one part of the navigation to another and it will update.
>> >> >> > You refer to "the navigation" yet this concept does not seem to
>> >> >> > be
>> >> >> > directly
>> >> >> > supported in EW2 at all.
>> >> >> > Is what you mean: "when you make an amendment within your
>> >> >> > manually
>> >> >> > defined
>> >> >> > navigation structure, links will update."?
>> >> >> > Yet I don't seem to be able to find any clearly defined methods
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > manage
>> >> >> > this.
>> >> >> > Rather feels like it's everyone's best ideas forward and good
>> >> >> > luck
>> >> >> > devising
>> >> >> > your own navigation system for yourself (or buy a 3rd party
>> >> >> > add-on/tool
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > help accomplish)!
>> >> >> > This frankly falls well short of an acceptable migration strategy
>> >> >> > from
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > ease of use implicit in FP.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sure it does...links will be updated, same as in FP - as long as
>> >> >> you're
>> >> >> working with a web site opened and not loose pages.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This is why Cheryl mentioned DWTs & includes...build your menu in
>> >> >> one
>> >> >> place
>> >> >> (DWT or include) update there...all links will be updated.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>

KathyW

Coming in very late to this, but one thing hasn't been mentioned.

EW comes with built-in web templates. Create a new local web using one of
those, and you'll have an example of how navigation can be done using a DWT,
which you'll find quite simple to replicate and modify.

For more complex navigation structures you could use an additional include
file with menus for each subsection, or multiple DWTs. Or, look online and
you'll find numerous examples of how to make more complex menus using lists
and CSS.

And, if you develop a site with asp.net 2.0, a new set of options opens up.

"Gary" wrote:

> I am a complete newbie to Expression (and I've really not used Front Page
> much, either) so this is a very basic question.
>
> I've worked on web sites using web-based site builders that were included at
> no cost with the web hosting. One of the great features with these is the
> fact that when you add a new page it automatically shows up on the
> navigation bar on every page on the site. Then if you rename the page or
> change the order of the pages the navigation bar changes also. My question
> is, does Expression do this also or do you have to adjust these things
> manually?
>
> TIA!
> --
> Gary
> Visit Lucy & Gary and do the jigsaw puzzle at
> www.under-1-roof.com/PuzzlePage.html
>
>
>
>