JCH

I think I have an overview of what EW offers after reading the books by
Cheryl Wise and Jim Cheshire. Now it is time for me to make a major time
investment in learning details and rebuilding my website from scratch.

Should I start with a Dynamic Web Template and learn the non-ASP.NET part of
EW or go ahead and jump into ASP.NET from the beginning? Maybe those here who
work with beginners could offer the pros and cons.

I do have some reservations about wholeheartedly embracing the Microsoft
way. They have a habit of making it very expensive and time consuming to use
their products. I think if I had just learned the open-source way back in
1998 instead of fooling with Microsoft FrontPage that I would be both time
and money ahead. In the back of my mind something keeps telling me ASP.NET
will eventually lead to the same end as FrontPage, costing me hundreds of
dollars and hundreds of hours for absolutely nothing in return.

I know this is a Microsoft forum dedicated to a Microsoft product, so I
expect some bias. Up until about 2003, I thought Microsoft was the prime
mover in making computers and the internet available to everyone. I thought
they were the greatest corporation ever. They seem to have changed and
forgotten where they came from. Tell me it ain't so, Joe.
--
Cordially,
JCH

Cheryl D Wise

You've already had my opinion. <g>

Okay, I'll get serious. If you haven't created websites to web standards
(which is perfectly possible in FrontPage, especially FP 2003 but you had to
learn how to do it and not just click, click, click - in other words not the
way MS shows in demos) I would suggest starting with basics. HTML and CSS
whether you elect to go the PHP/MySQL route or the full ASP.NET master pages
approach.

In my not so humble opinion, no one should be allowed to create web pages
until they understand the basics of HTML and CSS. That is the foundation
upon which you can build but if you don't know how to structure a web page
(headings, lists, paragraphs, divs, ids) and work with the presentation
layer (css using html selectors, classes and ids then defining properties
with appropriate values) you will be in a world of hurt when something on
your website breaks. I can guarantee you that sooner or later you will have
web pages if not whole websites that break. I've been creating websites
since 1993-4 and I still have pages that break. Heck, I can bring down a
whole site with a wrong web.config or htaccess edit. <g> Fortunately, I've
also learned how to find and fix my mistakes (or in some cases where to
shout for help <vbg>).

--
Cheryl D Wise
MS MVP Expression
Author: Foundations of Microsoft Expression Web
http://by-expression.com
mail list: http://groups.google.com/group/by-ex...n-web-designer


"JCH" <JCH@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:FB633F4D-7960-4B19-9C89-CECD0FC71AA2@microsoft.com...
>I think I have an overview of what EW offers after reading the books by
> Cheryl Wise and Jim Cheshire. Now it is time for me to make a major time
> investment in learning details and rebuilding my website from scratch.
>
> Should I start with a Dynamic Web Template and learn the non-ASP.NET part
> of
> EW or go ahead and jump into ASP.NET from the beginning? Maybe those here
> who
> work with beginners could offer the pros and cons.
>
> I do have some reservations about wholeheartedly embracing the Microsoft
> way. They have a habit of making it very expensive and time consuming to
> use
> their products. I think if I had just learned the open-source way back in
> 1998 instead of fooling with Microsoft FrontPage that I would be both time
> and money ahead. In the back of my mind something keeps telling me ASP.NET
> will eventually lead to the same end as FrontPage, costing me hundreds of
> dollars and hundreds of hours for absolutely nothing in return.
>
> I know this is a Microsoft forum dedicated to a Microsoft product, so I
> expect some bias. Up until about 2003, I thought Microsoft was the prime
> mover in making computers and the internet available to everyone. I
> thought
> they were the greatest corporation ever. They seem to have changed and
> forgotten where they came from. Tell me it ain't so, Joe.
> --
> Cordially,
> JCH

JCH

I think I have decent grounding in HTML. My kids gave me the domain name for
Christmas years ago. The first pages I generated and published were done with
NotePad. The WYSIWYG editors came later. I also learned to do some scriping
with VBScript and JavaScript. I fooled with Perl a little but never really
learned the server side scripting. Then I got complacent with FrontPage and
moved on to other things.

I did quite a bit of study on Web Design (colors, layout, navigation etc)
and wound up using tables for layout and FP for navigation. The important
points I remember are that content is king and there must be easy navigation
to and from every page in the site.

I took a couple of calsses in XML and DHTML at HAL-PC when I lived in
Houston but never really put them to use. The things I learned should come
back easily although I don't remember much about it off the top of my head.

You are probably right to suggest sticking to CSS until I reach the limits
there before moving on to more complicated things. Simple is good for most
things in life.
--
Cordially,
JCH


"Cheryl D Wise" wrote:

> You've already had my opinion. <g>
>
> Okay, I'll get serious. If you haven't created websites to web standards
> (which is perfectly possible in FrontPage, especially FP 2003 but you had to
> learn how to do it and not just click, click, click - in other words not the
> way MS shows in demos) I would suggest starting with basics. HTML and CSS
> whether you elect to go the PHP/MySQL route or the full ASP.NET master pages
> approach.
>
> In my not so humble opinion, no one should be allowed to create web pages
> until they understand the basics of HTML and CSS. That is the foundation
> upon which you can build but if you don't know how to structure a web page
> (headings, lists, paragraphs, divs, ids) and work with the presentation
> layer (css using html selectors, classes and ids then defining properties
> with appropriate values) you will be in a world of hurt when something on
> your website breaks. I can guarantee you that sooner or later you will have
> web pages if not whole websites that break. I've been creating websites
> since 1993-4 and I still have pages that break. Heck, I can bring down a
> whole site with a wrong web.config or htaccess edit. <g> Fortunately, I've
> also learned how to find and fix my mistakes (or in some cases where to
> shout for help <vbg>).
>
> --
> Cheryl D Wise
> MS MVP Expression
> Author: Foundations of Microsoft Expression Web
> http://by-expression.com
> mail list: http://groups.google.com/group/by-ex...n-web-designer
>
>
> "JCH" <JCH@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:FB633F4D-7960-4B19-9C89-CECD0FC71AA2@microsoft.com...
> >I think I have an overview of what EW offers after reading the books by
> > Cheryl Wise and Jim Cheshire. Now it is time for me to make a major time
> > investment in learning details and rebuilding my website from scratch.
> >
> > Should I start with a Dynamic Web Template and learn the non-ASP.NET part
> > of
> > EW or go ahead and jump into ASP.NET from the beginning? Maybe those here
> > who
> > work with beginners could offer the pros and cons.
> >
> > I do have some reservations about wholeheartedly embracing the Microsoft
> > way. They have a habit of making it very expensive and time consuming to
> > use
> > their products. I think if I had just learned the open-source way back in
> > 1998 instead of fooling with Microsoft FrontPage that I would be both time
> > and money ahead. In the back of my mind something keeps telling me ASP.NET
> > will eventually lead to the same end as FrontPage, costing me hundreds of
> > dollars and hundreds of hours for absolutely nothing in return.
> >
> > I know this is a Microsoft forum dedicated to a Microsoft product, so I
> > expect some bias. Up until about 2003, I thought Microsoft was the prime
> > mover in making computers and the internet available to everyone. I
> > thought
> > they were the greatest corporation ever. They seem to have changed and
> > forgotten where they came from. Tell me it ain't so, Joe.
> > --
> > Cordially,
> > JCH
>
>

Cheryl D Wise

You are showing your age when you talk about tables for layout. Heck, there
are people who have been working professionally in web design development
who have never used a table. As for HAL-PC I was a SIG leader there for
almost 7 years and we still host the SIG archive http://webtechsig.org

Learn CSS, the separation of content from presentation, dropdown menus and
AJAX all depend very heavily on CSS.

--
Cheryl D Wise
MS MVP Expression
Author: Foundations of Microsoft Expression Web
http://by-expression.com
mail list: http://groups.google.com/group/by-ex...n-web-designer


"JCH" <JCH@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:085D58C0-92A6-4566-9A99-5F3361FDF7CA@microsoft.com...
>I think I have decent grounding in HTML. My kids gave me the domain name
>for
> Christmas years ago. The first pages I generated and published were done
> with
> NotePad. The WYSIWYG editors came later. I also learned to do some
> scriping
> with VBScript and JavaScript. I fooled with Perl a little but never really
> learned the server side scripting. Then I got complacent with FrontPage
> and
> moved on to other things.
>
> I did quite a bit of study on Web Design (colors, layout, navigation etc)
> and wound up using tables for layout and FP for navigation. The important
> points I remember are that content is king and there must be easy
> navigation
> to and from every page in the site.
>
> I took a couple of calsses in XML and DHTML at HAL-PC when I lived in
> Houston but never really put them to use. The things I learned should come
> back easily although I don't remember much about it off the top of my
> head.
>
> You are probably right to suggest sticking to CSS until I reach the limits
> there before moving on to more complicated things. Simple is good for most
> things in life.

JCH

It is a small world. Isn't HAL-PC a unique and magnificent organization?

I show my age more often than when I talk about tables but I'm pleased as
punch to be getting old. The only other choice is to die young. Plus, when
people start talking trash, I can let them know I was their age once and felt
exactly the same way - but I grew up.

We may wear out our welcome on this forum if we keep drifting from topic.
Email me at jcharper@msn.com if you want.

Does that email address show my age also? I have been using it for 20 years
give or take a few. I don't think there have been any new @msn emails given
out except to Microsoft employees (I'm not and never have been) since they
started Hotmail. I suppose they will snap to the fact I don't work there and
run me off some day. Until then, I'll just keep using it.
--
Cordially,
JCH


"Cheryl D Wise" wrote:

> You are showing your age when you talk about tables for layout. Heck, there
> are people who have been working professionally in web design development
> who have never used a table. As for HAL-PC I was a SIG leader there for
> almost 7 years and we still host the SIG archive http://webtechsig.org
>
> Learn CSS, the separation of content from presentation, dropdown menus and
> AJAX all depend very heavily on CSS.
>
> --
> Cheryl D Wise
> MS MVP Expression
> Author: Foundations of Microsoft Expression Web
> http://by-expression.com
> mail list: http://groups.google.com/group/by-ex...n-web-designer
>
>
> "JCH" <JCH@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:085D58C0-92A6-4566-9A99-5F3361FDF7CA@microsoft.com...
> >I think I have decent grounding in HTML. My kids gave me the domain name
> >for
> > Christmas years ago. The first pages I generated and published were done
> > with
> > NotePad. The WYSIWYG editors came later. I also learned to do some
> > scriping
> > with VBScript and JavaScript. I fooled with Perl a little but never really
> > learned the server side scripting. Then I got complacent with FrontPage
> > and
> > moved on to other things.
> >
> > I did quite a bit of study on Web Design (colors, layout, navigation etc)
> > and wound up using tables for layout and FP for navigation. The important
> > points I remember are that content is king and there must be easy
> > navigation
> > to and from every page in the site.
> >
> > I took a couple of calsses in XML and DHTML at HAL-PC when I lived in
> > Houston but never really put them to use. The things I learned should come
> > back easily although I don't remember much about it off the top of my
> > head.
> >
> > You are probably right to suggest sticking to CSS until I reach the limits
> > there before moving on to more complicated things. Simple is good for most
> > things in life.
>
>

Cheryl D Wise

Actually I have an msn account that I use for MS passport required stuff and
I almost never give it out except to Microsoft. <g>

We have a coffee house type area over on http://by-expression.com/forums/
(note we just moved from Community Server 2.1 to 2008 so some of the social
networking features are new and we haven't finished the look and feel with
the new application yet but it is working properly). We can chit chat there
without fear of wearing out any welcome since I own that group. There are
tutorials there as well on using Expression Web, including a work in
progress basic web page tutorial.


--
Cheryl D Wise
MS MVP Expression
Author: Foundations of Microsoft Expression Web
http://by-expression.com
mail list: http://groups.google.com/group/by-ex...n-web-designer


"JCH" <JCH@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:3674187F-8CBC-4E0D-AF5C-F684D2B3E888@microsoft.com...
> It is a small world. Isn't HAL-PC a unique and magnificent organization?
>
> I show my age more often than when I talk about tables but I'm pleased as
> punch to be getting old. The only other choice is to die young. Plus, when
> people start talking trash, I can let them know I was their age once and
> felt
> exactly the same way - but I grew up.
>
> We may wear out our welcome on this forum if we keep drifting from topic.
> Email me at jcharper@msn.com if you want.
>
> Does that email address show my age also? I have been using it for 20
> years
> give or take a few. I don't think there have been any new @msn emails
> given
> out except to Microsoft employees (I'm not and never have been) since they
> started Hotmail. I suppose they will snap to the fact I don't work there
> and
> run me off some day. Until then, I'll just keep using it.
> --
> Cordially,
> JCH
>
>
> "Cheryl D Wise" wrote:
>
>> You are showing your age when you talk about tables for layout. Heck,
>> there
>> are people who have been working professionally in web design development
>> who have never used a table. As for HAL-PC I was a SIG leader there for
>> almost 7 years and we still host the SIG archive http://webtechsig.org
>>
>> Learn CSS, the separation of content from presentation, dropdown menus
>> and
>> AJAX all depend very heavily on CSS.
>>
>> --
>> Cheryl D Wise
>> MS MVP Expression
>> Author: Foundations of Microsoft Expression Web
>> http://by-expression.com
>> mail list: http://groups.google.com/group/by-ex...n-web-designer
>>
>>
>> "JCH" <JCH@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:085D58C0-92A6-4566-9A99-5F3361FDF7CA@microsoft.com...
>> >I think I have decent grounding in HTML. My kids gave me the domain name
>> >for
>> > Christmas years ago. The first pages I generated and published were
>> > done
>> > with
>> > NotePad. The WYSIWYG editors came later. I also learned to do some
>> > scriping
>> > with VBScript and JavaScript. I fooled with Perl a little but never
>> > really
>> > learned the server side scripting. Then I got complacent with FrontPage
>> > and
>> > moved on to other things.
>> >
>> > I did quite a bit of study on Web Design (colors, layout, navigation
>> > etc)
>> > and wound up using tables for layout and FP for navigation. The
>> > important
>> > points I remember are that content is king and there must be easy
>> > navigation
>> > to and from every page in the site.
>> >
>> > I took a couple of calsses in XML and DHTML at HAL-PC when I lived in
>> > Houston but never really put them to use. The things I learned should
>> > come
>> > back easily although I don't remember much about it off the top of my
>> > head.
>> >
>> > You are probably right to suggest sticking to CSS until I reach the
>> > limits
>> > there before moving on to more complicated things. Simple is good for
>> > most
>> > things in life.
>>
>>

JCH

I took your advice. Here it is ten days later and I have moved along enough
to publish it - http://www.jcharper.net

What I did is take the first Business Template that comes with EX and
modified it. I kept some notes on the modifications in case anyone is
interested in the details. None of the modifications were particularly
difficult except for the navigation.

I tried to follow the procedure outlined in Jim Cheshire's book (Chap 25) to
make drop down menus using layers. It is time consuming but I did learn a lot
fooling with the behaviors. They still aren't exactly right and I don't know
exactly what is wrong. Maybe you can help or Cheshire will chime in.

There has got to be a better way to do the navigation. Hopefully, it will
become apparent when I move on to study ASP.NET. In FP, site navigation was
the least of my problems. In EW using style sheets only, it sure seems time
consuming and not very reliable. I cannot imagine managing more that a few
fairly static pages this way.

Let me know what you think if you have time to take a look at the site.
There isn't any hurry since I have a lot of content to generate on the pages
already published. Some of them are still just empty templates waiting to be
filled.
--
Cordially,
JCH


"Cheryl D Wise" wrote:

> You've already had my opinion. <g>
>
> Okay, I'll get serious. If you haven't created websites to web standards
> (which is perfectly possible in FrontPage, especially FP 2003 but you had to
> learn how to do it and not just click, click, click - in other words not the
> way MS shows in demos) I would suggest starting with basics. HTML and CSS
> whether you elect to go the PHP/MySQL route or the full ASP.NET master pages
> approach.
>
> In my not so humble opinion, no one should be allowed to create web pages
> until they understand the basics of HTML and CSS. That is the foundation
> upon which you can build but if you don't know how to structure a web page
> (headings, lists, paragraphs, divs, ids) and work with the presentation
> layer (css using html selectors, classes and ids then defining properties
> with appropriate values) you will be in a world of hurt when something on
> your website breaks. I can guarantee you that sooner or later you will have
> web pages if not whole websites that break. I've been creating websites
> since 1993-4 and I still have pages that break. Heck, I can bring down a
> whole site with a wrong web.config or htaccess edit. <g> Fortunately, I've
> also learned how to find and fix my mistakes (or in some cases where to
> shout for help <vbg>).
>
> --
> Cheryl D Wise
> MS MVP Expression
> Author: Foundations of Microsoft Expression Web
> http://by-expression.com
> mail list: http://groups.google.com/group/by-ex...n-web-designer
>
>
> "JCH" <JCH@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:FB633F4D-7960-4B19-9C89-CECD0FC71AA2@microsoft.com...
> >I think I have an overview of what EW offers after reading the books by
> > Cheryl Wise and Jim Cheshire. Now it is time for me to make a major time
> > investment in learning details and rebuilding my website from scratch.
> >
> > Should I start with a Dynamic Web Template and learn the non-ASP.NET part
> > of
> > EW or go ahead and jump into ASP.NET from the beginning? Maybe those here
> > who
> > work with beginners could offer the pros and cons.
> >
> > I do have some reservations about wholeheartedly embracing the Microsoft
> > way. They have a habit of making it very expensive and time consuming to
> > use
> > their products. I think if I had just learned the open-source way back in
> > 1998 instead of fooling with Microsoft FrontPage that I would be both time
> > and money ahead. In the back of my mind something keeps telling me ASP.NET
> > will eventually lead to the same end as FrontPage, costing me hundreds of
> > dollars and hundreds of hours for absolutely nothing in return.
> >
> > I know this is a Microsoft forum dedicated to a Microsoft product, so I
> > expect some bias. Up until about 2003, I thought Microsoft was the prime
> > mover in making computers and the internet available to everyone. I
> > thought
> > they were the greatest corporation ever. They seem to have changed and
> > forgotten where they came from. Tell me it ain't so, Joe.
> > --
> > Cordially,
> > JCH
>
>

Cheryl D Wise

For drop downs I use CSS Express menus , very easy, stilt works as a nested
list if the visitor is using a device a to doesn't support javascript or
css. See
http://www.projectseven.com/tutorial...e/workpage.htm

--
Cheryl D Wise
MS MVP Expression
Author: Foundations of Microsoft Expression Web

See our complete selection of Expression Web tutorials at
http://by-expression.com/content/tutorials.aspx

"JCH" <JCH@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:6BAFB372-D09F-4D43-B536-6B52F84E8EFC@microsoft.com...
>I took your advice. Here it is ten days later and I have moved along enough
> to publish it - http://www.jcharper.net
>
> What I did is take the first Business Template that comes with EX and
> modified it. I kept some notes on the modifications in case anyone is
> interested in the details. None of the modifications were particularly
> difficult except for the navigation.
>
> I tried to follow the procedure outlined in Jim Cheshire's book (Chap 25)
> to
> make drop down menus using layers. It is time consuming but I did learn a
> lot
> fooling with the behaviors. They still aren't exactly right and I don't
> know
> exactly what is wrong. Maybe you can help or Cheshire will chime in.
>
> There has got to be a better way to do the navigation. Hopefully, it will
> become apparent when I move on to study ASP.NET. In FP, site navigation
> was
> the least of my problems. In EW using style sheets only, it sure seems
> time
> consuming and not very reliable. I cannot imagine managing more that a few
> fairly static pages this way.
>
> Let me know what you think if you have time to take a look at the site.
> There isn't any hurry since I have a lot of content to generate on the
> pages
> already published. Some of them are still just empty templates waiting to
> be
> filled.
> --
> Cordially,
> JCH
>
>
> "Cheryl D Wise" wrote:
>
>> You've already had my opinion. <g>
>>
>> Okay, I'll get serious. If you haven't created websites to web standards
>> (which is perfectly possible in FrontPage, especially FP 2003 but you had
>> to
>> learn how to do it and not just click, click, click - in other words not
>> the
>> way MS shows in demos) I would suggest starting with basics. HTML and CSS
>> whether you elect to go the PHP/MySQL route or the full ASP.NET master
>> pages
>> approach.
>>
>> In my not so humble opinion, no one should be allowed to create web pages
>> until they understand the basics of HTML and CSS. That is the foundation
>> upon which you can build but if you don't know how to structure a web
>> page
>> (headings, lists, paragraphs, divs, ids) and work with the presentation
>> layer (css using html selectors, classes and ids then defining properties
>> with appropriate values) you will be in a world of hurt when something on
>> your website breaks. I can guarantee you that sooner or later you will
>> have
>> web pages if not whole websites that break. I've been creating websites
>> since 1993-4 and I still have pages that break. Heck, I can bring down a
>> whole site with a wrong web.config or htaccess edit. <g> Fortunately,
>> I've
>> also learned how to find and fix my mistakes (or in some cases where to
>> shout for help <vbg>).
>>
>> --
>> Cheryl D Wise
>> MS MVP Expression
>> Author: Foundations of Microsoft Expression Web
>> http://by-expression.com
>> mail list: http://groups.google.com/group/by-ex...n-web-designer
>>
>>
>> "JCH" <JCH@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news:FB633F4D-7960-4B19-9C89-CECD0FC71AA2@microsoft.com...
>> >I think I have an overview of what EW offers after reading the books by
>> > Cheryl Wise and Jim Cheshire. Now it is time for me to make a major
>> > time
>> > investment in learning details and rebuilding my website from scratch.
>> >
>> > Should I start with a Dynamic Web Template and learn the non-ASP.NET
>> > part
>> > of
>> > EW or go ahead and jump into ASP.NET from the beginning? Maybe those
>> > here
>> > who
>> > work with beginners could offer the pros and cons.
>> >
>> > I do have some reservations about wholeheartedly embracing the
>> > Microsoft
>> > way. They have a habit of making it very expensive and time consuming
>> > to
>> > use
>> > their products. I think if I had just learned the open-source way back
>> > in
>> > 1998 instead of fooling with Microsoft FrontPage that I would be both
>> > time
>> > and money ahead. In the back of my mind something keeps telling me
>> > ASP.NET
>> > will eventually lead to the same end as FrontPage, costing me hundreds
>> > of
>> > dollars and hundreds of hours for absolutely nothing in return.
>> >
>> > I know this is a Microsoft forum dedicated to a Microsoft product, so I
>> > expect some bias. Up until about 2003, I thought Microsoft was the
>> > prime
>> > mover in making computers and the internet available to everyone. I
>> > thought
>> > they were the greatest corporation ever. They seem to have changed and
>> > forgotten where they came from. Tell me it ain't so, Joe.
>> > --
>> > Cordially,
>> > JCH
>>
>>