Falcon42

"Steve" wrote:

> I have successfully installed Expression Web and getting used to it with one
> major problem. In FP 2003 I could click on the NAVIGATION icon at the bottom
> and add or subtract pages and the buttons would re-sync with the new design.
> Is this possible in Expression? I want to add a new button but am lost.
>
> Thanks

Amazingly, the successor for FP2003 does not seem to have any equivalent
support for logical site organisation (i.e. "Navigation View") - I (as an
existing FP2003 user), too, wished to avail myself of latest product
innovations, but this glaring, profound omission from EW2 precludes any such
consideration at present.

Chris Leeds, MVP - FrontPage

don't give up so quickly!
have a look at the asp.net "sitemap" (just an XML file) and the Navigation
Controls.
while it's not as "visual" as the navigation view it is superior in a number
of different ways.
If you don't want to go with the asp.net stuff you can always use a DWT (for
htm/html) and just put your navigation within the DWT and you'll have almost
as good a situation as the nav controls from asp.net or the nav components
in FP.

HTH

--
Chris Leeds
Contact: http://chrisleeds.com/contact
Have you seen ContentSeed (www.contentseed.com)?
NOTE:
This message was posted from an unmonitored email account.
This is an unfortunate necessity due to high volumes of spam sent to email
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Sorry for any inconvenience.
"Falcon42" <Falcon42@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news7BAEB8E-BA15-4EB4-9BD8-5591E5A2A735@microsoft.com...
> "Steve" wrote:
>
>> I have successfully installed Expression Web and getting used to it with
>> one
>> major problem. In FP 2003 I could click on the NAVIGATION icon at the
>> bottom
>> and add or subtract pages and the buttons would re-sync with the new
>> design.
>> Is this possible in Expression? I want to add a new button but am lost.
>>
>> Thanks
>
> Amazingly, the successor for FP2003 does not seem to have any equivalent
> support for logical site organisation (i.e. "Navigation View") - I (as an
> existing FP2003 user), too, wished to avail myself of latest product
> innovations, but this glaring, profound omission from EW2 precludes any
> such
> consideration at present.

Falcon42

Hi Chris,
Your reply is appreciated.
Please see replies inline below.

"Chris Leeds, MVP - FrontPage" wrote:

> don't give up so quickly!
I've actually written multiple questions about this on here and have
received multiple, differing replies - largely indicating a need to manually
craft navigation from scratch).
There has been no conformity to (MVP/other-provided) replies as to the
recommended approach (shamefully I haven't seen any such thing from the EW2
product team) and the inferred work required to accomplish something that was
implicit and so trivial in FP simply makes the mass majority impractical (now
I need additional 3rd party tools/components and significant implementation
work to achieve the same thing).
The EW2 help file was frankly useless and I've wasted a good couple of
person-days work on researching this so far, so it would be very wrong to
presume my prior posting was precipitate.
> have a look at the asp.net "sitemap" (just an XML file) and the Navigation
> Controls.
> while it's not as "visual" as the navigation view
So, in short, there's nothing equivalent regarding navigation in EW2 that
provides the ease of use inherent to FP.
I used and recommended FP _primarily for its ease of use_ (if I wanted a
differing, better, more standards compliant tool I'd have jumped onto the
Dreamweaver bandwagon long ago).
Seems like EW2 is one step forward (consideration of standards compliance)
and two steps back (removal of primary product advantage in its ease of use
and more need for manual implementation work).
Also, what additional server requirements (if any) does use of this
asp.net-based solution infer?
> it is superior in a number
> of different ways.
Please could you say how this is so for FP users?
> If you don't want to go with the asp.net stuff you can always use a DWT (for
> htm/html) and just put your navigation within the DWT
Can you indicate how such a DWT solution addresses needs for:
"Back", "Next", "Up" buttons; nested sets of pages within a structure having
multiple (sub-)sections (as we could previously see and easily work with in
FP's Navigation View)?
> and you'll have almost
> as good a situation as the nav controls from asp.net or the nav components
> in FP.
>
> HTH
>
> --
> Chris Leeds
> Contact: http://chrisleeds.com/contact
> Have you seen ContentSeed (www.contentseed.com)?
> NOTE:
> This message was posted from an unmonitored email account.
> This is an unfortunate necessity due to high volumes of spam sent to email
> addresses in public newsgroups.
> Sorry for any inconvenience.
> "Falcon42" <Falcon42@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news7BAEB8E-BA15-4EB4-9BD8-5591E5A2A735@microsoft.com...
> > "Steve" wrote:
> >
> >> I have successfully installed Expression Web and getting used to it with
> >> one
> >> major problem. In FP 2003 I could click on the NAVIGATION icon at the
> >> bottom
> >> and add or subtract pages and the buttons would re-sync with the new
> >> design.
> >> Is this possible in Expression? I want to add a new button but am lost.
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >
> > Amazingly, the successor for FP2003 does not seem to have any equivalent
> > support for logical site organisation (i.e. "Navigation View") - I (as an
> > existing FP2003 user), too, wished to avail myself of latest product
> > innovations, but this glaring, profound omission from EW2 precludes any
> > such
> > consideration at present.
>
>
>

Chris Leeds, MVP - FrontPage

Hi,
I'll put my comments below with yours (for clarity).

--
Chris Leeds
Contact: http://chrisleeds.com/contact
> Hi Chris,
> Your reply is appreciated.
> Please see replies inline below.
>
> "Chris Leeds, MVP - FrontPage" wrote:
>
>> don't give up so quickly!
> I've actually written multiple questions about this on here and have
> received multiple, differing replies - largely indicating a need to
> manually
> craft navigation from scratch).
> There has been no conformity to (MVP/other-provided) replies as to the
> recommended approach (shamefully I haven't seen any such thing from the
> EW2
> product team) and the inferred work required to accomplish something that
> was
> implicit and so trivial in FP simply makes the mass majority impractical
> (now
> I need additional 3rd party tools/components and significant
> implementation
> work to achieve the same thing).
(chris) I think you're getting this feeling because each developer will want
to approach it their own way. We also have a tendency to belive that the
way we do it is "best" but in reality the way a user does it most
comfortably for them is what's "best" for them.
I don't think you need 3rd party tools to get a cool navigation srtucutre
(although they are helpful). What you really need to do is use EW or EW2,
or even FrontPage at a deeper level that was always there but most people
never got to it because the stuff "on top" was so easy to get at (Wizards,
Nav Bars, Contact Forms, Etc.).
You can do a very nice navigation bar on a template or in a file that you
use the "save-time include" to write into other pages, etc.

> The EW2 help file was frankly useless and I've wasted a good couple of
> person-days work on researching this so far, so it would be very wrong to
> presume my prior posting was precipitate.
>> have a look at the asp.net "sitemap" (just an XML file) and the
>> Navigation
>> Controls.
>> while it's not as "visual" as the navigation view
> So, in short, there's nothing equivalent regarding navigation in EW2 that
> provides the ease of use inherent to FP.
(Chris) "Ease" is a relative term.


> I used and recommended FP _primarily for its ease of use_ (if I wanted a
> differing, better, more standards compliant tool I'd have jumped onto the
> Dreamweaver bandwagon long ago).
(chris) believe me; I hear you and I know what you're saying!


> Seems like EW2 is one step forward (consideration of standards compliance)
> and two steps back (removal of primary product advantage in its ease of
> use
> and more need for manual implementation work).
(Chris) That seems to be the sentiment of the majority of frontpage users I
communicate with.
The ones who were into "validity" and semantic mark-up had already started
heading in that direction with FrontPage 2003, or were interested and
cognizant of the fine points of technical HTML design that they could use
notepad if they had to.


> Also, what additional server requirements (if any) does use of this
> asp.net-based solution infer?
(chris) windows server with ASP.NET 2.0 or better.


>> it is superior in a number
>> of different ways.
> Please could you say how this is so for FP users?
(Chris) yes, you'll get smaller sized web-sites that validate, are more
accessible to disabled users, are more easily indexed by search engines, are
easier to modify and customize as they mature, pass from the server to the
requesting browser more quickly, lend themselves to different display for
like; screen, print, and mobile, and the list goes on and on.
Basically what it does is bring your site and design into the current
century from the last one.


>> If you don't want to go with the asp.net stuff you can always use a DWT
>> (for
>> htm/html) and just put your navigation within the DWT
> Can you indicate how such a DWT solution addresses needs for:
> "Back", "Next", "Up" buttons; nested sets of pages within a structure
> having
> multiple (sub-)sections (as we could previously see and easily work with
> in
> FP's Navigation View)?
(Chris) sure, while you don't have the "navigation view" where you laid out
your pages you can certainly use complex navigation via the DWT or
Masterpage. None of it's laying of the surface of the UI like "navigation
view" was though.


>> and you'll have almost
>> as good a situation as the nav controls from asp.net or the nav
>> components
>> in FP.
(Chris) I just want to close by saying that none of the comments above are
derisive in any way. I understand that you've invested some time and effort
into learning Expression Web and you feel like you're coming up empty.
Understood, been there, done that too.

You'll find someone on these groups who will be willing to help you at every
step, and we're all in the same boat with the UI insomuch as nobody has a
"magic" UI that lets us do anything we want with just a couple of clicks.
:-(

HTH

Chris
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> --
>> Chris Leeds
>> Contact: http://chrisleeds.com/contact
>> Have you seen ContentSeed (www.contentseed.com)?
>> NOTE:
>> This message was posted from an unmonitored email account.
>> This is an unfortunate necessity due to high volumes of spam sent to
>> email
>> addresses in public newsgroups.
>> Sorry for any inconvenience.
>> "Falcon42" <Falcon42@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>> news7BAEB8E-BA15-4EB4-9BD8-5591E5A2A735@microsoft.com...
>> > "Steve" wrote:
>> >
>> >> I have successfully installed Expression Web and getting used to it
>> >> with
>> >> one
>> >> major problem. In FP 2003 I could click on the NAVIGATION icon at the
>> >> bottom
>> >> and add or subtract pages and the buttons would re-sync with the new
>> >> design.
>> >> Is this possible in Expression? I want to add a new button but am
>> >> lost.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks
>> >
>> > Amazingly, the successor for FP2003 does not seem to have any
>> > equivalent
>> > support for logical site organisation (i.e. "Navigation View") - I (as
>> > an
>> > existing FP2003 user), too, wished to avail myself of latest product
>> > innovations, but this glaring, profound omission from EW2 precludes any
>> > such
>> > consideration at present.
>>
>>
>>