Roger Mills

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Bob Eager <rde42@spamcop.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 15:58:49 UTC, "Roger Mills"
> <watt.tyler@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> If it's any consolation, I think it's £4.50 *including* VAT, not
>> +VAT.
>
> In fact, there *is* no VAT on it.


Well, the result is the same - £4.50 rather than £5.29 is what you actually
pay.

If what you say is correct, by what means can BT levy this charge without
having to account to the government for the VAT element of it or,
alternatively, what qualifies it to be zero rated?
--
Cheers,
Roger
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Roger Mills

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Bill <me@privacy.net> wrote:

> In message <p3qEewACMVfGFwNy@ntlworld.com>, Goalie of the Century
> <goalie@ntlworld.com> writes
>> BT will just collect any VAT and pass it on to that nice Mr Brown. So
>> it's a way of BT saving their-customers-who-can't-reclaim-VAT
>> some VAT.
>
> But it is still a ludicrous imposition. If they get away with charging
> me to pay them, won't everyone else start to do the same. The butcher,
> the baker, Tesco, the no-marks who have screwed the water industry and
> so on.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but they already do! Gas and electricity
companies charge more to those customers who don't pay by DD. Some travel
firms charge more if you pay for your holiday by credit card - etc.

BBC Watchdog got very exercised by this BT business a few months ago - but
their protest very quickly fizzled out because they had failed to take
account of the fact that:
A) BT had actually been giving a discount for paying by DD for a long time,
and no-one had hitherto complained
B) The law explicity permits businesses to charge customers differently for
the same service depending on the method of payment which they use

The choice is yours. If you want to avoid the charge, pay by DD. You have
not yet explained your aversion to DD - what is the problem?
--
Cheers,
Roger
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Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!

Kraftee

Bill wrote:
> In message <p3qEewACMVfGFwNy@ntlworld.com>, Goalie of the Century
> <goalie@ntlworld.com> writes
>> BT will just collect any VAT and pass it on to that nice Mr Brown.
>> So it's a way of BT saving their-customers-who-can't-reclaim-VAT
>> some VAT.
>
> But it is still a ludicrous imposition. If they get away with
> charging me to pay them, won't everyone else start to do the same.

But most, if not all utilities already do, it's the wording which is
different & that is all.

BT is adding the handling charge, whilst the others offer a discount
to those who pay by DD. There is no real difference at all, in fact
this was the case with BT up until the latest price list was released,
before then you paid by DD & got a discount.

> The butcher, the baker, Tesco, the no-marks who have screwed the
> water industry and so on.

Water companies already offer the discount for paying by direct debit,
Gas likewise & as for the Electricity companies if you don't pay up
front they realyy rip into you & having to go down to your local post
office, sweet shop, or whatever just to get your token topped up,
especially in the rain, cold & snow & they charge you extra as well.

> It's like road pricing. Once some crook finds a way to take the
> money I haven't got, it will spread. No wonder the jails are full.
>
> I repeat the questions.
>
> Is the no way of getting a landline without paying BT or someone to
> set up yet another parasitic company to employ yet more useless
> office workers?
>
> Is there no body of outrage anywhere?

Well there is yours...you do have a body, don't you?

Suggest you get past the semantics & try looking at the reality of
what is actually happening & that is I'm not getting a discount
anymore (because I pay by direct debit & no not direct from my wages)
whilst you are paying a handling fee where in the past I was paying
less than you because I was paying by direct debit & got a discount...

Ivor Jones

"Paul Cupis" <paul@cupis.co.uk> wrote in message
news:f5jrb4$27ac$1@energise.enta.net

[snip]

> Are the "useless office workers" you mention the ones who
> have to be employed to allow BT to process cash and
> cheque payments such as you prefer, or the ones who would
> not be needed if payments were more automated, say, by
> using Direct Debit?

Those employed at the local post office, do you mean..? Oh no, they're all
closed now, aren't they...

Ivor

Ivor Jones

"Roger Mills" <watt.tyler@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:5e5e90F37f9inU1@mid.individual.net
> In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
> Bill <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> > In message <p3qEewACMVfGFwNy@ntlworld.com>, Goalie of
> > the Century <goalie@ntlworld.com> writes
> > > BT will just collect any VAT and pass it on to that
> > > nice Mr Brown. So it's a way of BT saving
> > > their-customers-who-can't-reclaim-VAT some VAT.
> >
> > But it is still a ludicrous imposition. If they get
> > away with charging me to pay them, won't everyone else
> > start to do the same. The butcher, the baker, Tesco,
> > the no-marks who have screwed the water industry and so
> > on.
>
> Maybe you haven't noticed, but they already do! Gas and
> electricity companies charge more to those customers who
> don't pay by DD. Some travel firms charge more if you pay
> for your holiday by credit card - etc.

That's the credit card company, not the travel agent.

> BBC Watchdog got very exercised by this BT business a few
> months ago - but their protest very quickly fizzled out
> because they had failed to take account of the fact that:
> A) BT had actually been giving a discount for paying by
> DD for a long time, and no-one had hitherto complained
> B) The law explicity permits businesses to charge
> customers differently for the same service depending on
> the method of payment which they use
> The choice is yours. If you want to avoid the charge, pay
> by DD. You have not yet explained your aversion to DD -
> what is the problem?

The problem is simple. If I choose to pay by a particular method, it
should not cost me any more *or less* than someone paying by a different
method.

Personally I have no problem with DD but if someone does, it should be
their choice not to pay by that means without penalty.


Ivor

Kraftee

Ivor Jones wrote:
> "Paul Cupis" <paul@cupis.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:f5jrb4$27ac$1@energise.enta.net
>
> [snip]
>
>> Are the "useless office workers" you mention the ones who
>> have to be employed to allow BT to process cash and
>> cheque payments such as you prefer, or the ones who would
>> not be needed if payments were more automated, say, by
>> using Direct Debit?
>
> Those employed at the local post office, do you mean..? Oh no,
> they're all closed now, aren't they...
>
> Ivor

It's the corner/sweet shops now, but they'll all closing due to the
spread of the superstores

Kraftee

Ivor Jones wrote:
> "Roger Mills" <watt.tyler@googlemail.com> wrote in message
> news:5e5e90F37f9inU1@mid.individual.net
>> In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
>> Bill <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <p3qEewACMVfGFwNy@ntlworld.com>, Goalie of
>>> the Century <goalie@ntlworld.com> writes
>>>> BT will just collect any VAT and pass it on to that
>>>> nice Mr Brown. So it's a way of BT saving
>>>> their-customers-who-can't-reclaim-VAT some VAT.
>>>
>>> But it is still a ludicrous imposition. If they get
>>> away with charging me to pay them, won't everyone else
>>> start to do the same. The butcher, the baker, Tesco,
>>> the no-marks who have screwed the water industry and so
>>> on.
>>
>> Maybe you haven't noticed, but they already do! Gas and
>> electricity companies charge more to those customers who
>> don't pay by DD. Some travel firms charge more if you pay
>> for your holiday by credit card - etc.
>
> That's the credit card company, not the travel agent.
>
>> BBC Watchdog got very exercised by this BT business a few
>> months ago - but their protest very quickly fizzled out
>> because they had failed to take account of the fact that:
>> A) BT had actually been giving a discount for paying by
>> DD for a long time, and no-one had hitherto complained
>> B) The law explicity permits businesses to charge
>> customers differently for the same service depending on
>> the method of payment which they use
>> The choice is yours. If you want to avoid the charge, pay
>> by DD. You have not yet explained your aversion to DD -
>> what is the problem?
>
> The problem is simple. If I choose to pay by a particular method, it
> should not cost me any more *or less* than someone paying by a
> different method.
>
> Personally I have no problem with DD but if someone does, it should
> be their choice not to pay by that means without penalty.
>
>
> Ivor

Maybe in your reality, but in this Blairite society we're in I'm
afraid you have little choice...

Right, now who's going to start complaining that Asda card holders get
2p a litre of the price of their fuel whilst everybody else
doesn't....

{{{{{Welcome}}}}}

Bill wrote:
> In message <p3qEewACMVfGFwNy@ntlworld.com>, Goalie of the Century
> <goalie@ntlworld.com> writes
>> BT will just collect any VAT and pass it on to that nice Mr Brown. So
>> it's a way of BT saving their-customers-who-can't-reclaim-VAT
>> some VAT.
>
> But it is still a ludicrous imposition. If they get away with charging
> me to pay them, won't everyone else start to do the same. The butcher,
> the baker, Tesco, the no-marks who have screwed the water industry and
> so on.
> It's like road pricing. Once some crook finds a way to take the money
> I haven't got, it will spread. No wonder the jails are full.
>
> I repeat the questions.
>
> Is the no way of getting a landline without paying BT or someone to
> set up yet another parasitic company to employ yet more useless office
> workers?
>
> Is there no body of outrage anywhere?

But you have been paying £3 per quarter for not paying by DD for all
these years, suddenly it increases by 50p per month and the complaints
come in, why not complain all those years back?


Gas and electric is over 20% cheaper if you go a DD route.


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Adam Funk

On 2007-06-23, Ivor Jones wrote:

>> Maybe you haven't noticed, but they already do! Gas and
>> electricity companies charge more to those customers who
>> don't pay by DD. Some travel firms charge more if you pay
>> for your holiday by credit card - etc.
>
> That's the credit card company, not the travel agent.

If travel agents and other retailers charged only the extra amount
they pay for CC transactions, that would be one thing. But not only
do they profiteer from CC surcharges, they also want to discourage
consumers from having the extra protection they get from using credit
cards (e.g. Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act).


> The problem is simple. If I choose to pay by a particular method, it
> should not cost me any more *or less* than someone paying by a different
> method.
>
> Personally I have no problem with DD but if someone does, it should be
> their choice not to pay by that means without penalty.

I wouldn't have a problem with discriminating against payment by
cheque (which does require more human intervention), but they should
be required to give prompt bank transfer payments and (for estimated
usage, e.g. electricity and gas) standing order payments the same
treatment as DD.

Bill

In message <5e5e90F37f9inU1@mid.individual.net>, Roger Mills
<watt.tyler@googlemail.com> writes
>If you want to avoid the charge, pay by DD. You have not yet explained
>your aversion to DD - what is the problem?

The basic problem is that I would have to transfer money from my savings
into a current account that only pays something like 0.01% interest to
cover the DD. I have to minimise the reduction in worth of my savings to
extend the time they last. I have to make sure the right amount is in
the account otherwise the bank tries to profiteer. To accept a DD means
the work is transferred from BT to me. Next, it'll be climbing the
telegraph pole to replace the cable.
And, as I said, I had a dreadful experience some time back with a mobile
phone company who had permission to dip into my bank account and take
what they saw fit.
Never, ever, ever again.
Of course I'm posting from a loaded position. We are slipping back into
a fourth world state and allowing the people with the rubber stamps to
multiply. Little is being created, little produced.

What is the great effort in processing a cheque payment? If the milkman
can do it within what I pay him, why can't BT?

Why is it different from the cases of the banks being challenged over
profiteering on overdraft charges or whatever? How can it cost £4.50 to
see that a cheque payment agrees with the statement and take it to the
bank? Are we buying gold-plated letter openers?
When I had a business there was no way of charging for being paid.

But this is what I didn't want this to degenerate into. I just want to
know how to get a straight telephony service (cable doesn't pass here)
for a straight payment.
--
Bill